Blind Faith: Pennsylvania's Migrating Wild Brown Trout

[salvelinusfontinalis]

Why can't we have a no kill brown trout regulation in a creek that supposedly doesn't have brown trout?

;-)

Because we know it does but still say it doesn't so those fish, the best fish.....

are afforded absolutely no protection.

Beyond that we dont even discuss them so our TU groups dont focus on them as much.

I just dont get why we are just like meh yeah, nice fish and thats it.

 

[Dave_W]

It's common knowledge that there are wild BTs, many of them very large, that move in and out of tributaries in the Susquehanna watershed.

As I've said before, this phenomena is not well understood and needs more study. There have been some BT telemetry studies - think of the Little Juniata - in recent years but their results have been less than conclusive (so far). These studies need to be expanded. It would make, I would think, a wonderful thesis or dissertation for a fisheries grad student. Fascinating stuff.

However, until we have better scientific knowledge on these matters, I continue to remain skeptical - I'm firmly in the "a brown trout is a brown trout camp" - that these are some form of genetically unique fish in need of special protection. I don't think it a worthwhile use of time to seek widespread new regulations that would never be a sell to the public or the PFBC (I would like to see all of Letort C&R, like many of you).

BTs move. So do a lot of species in the watershed. In fact, if one wishes to focus on game fish movement throughout the Susky watershed SMBs are a better example in this regard. This is the foundation of the already widespread desire to improve culverts, remove dams, etc. The benefits of such efforts to clear obstacles to fish movement is a consensus one among anglers and conservationists. This is where we should, in my view, continue to focus our efforts. The BTs will benefit from this too (of course).

 

[Dave_W]

With this said ^ Sal has written a nice and thought provoking thread with beautiful photos. It's a great time of year and this is motivating stuff to encourage us to get out there and pursue - or just try to learn more about - wild trout.

 

[k-bob]

The OP on fish movement quotes undercoffer "real natives" article, which goes on to say that:

"the disappearance of large brook trout from our big northcentral freestone streams cannot be explained by the effects of the logging era. The forests were indeed stripped by the loggers and the watersheds were decimated by fire, but this was nothing compared to what these resilient fish had already survived over twelve thousand years of flood, fire and ice... The forests surrounding the big freestone streams of northcentral Pennsylvania have long since recovered from the disastrous effects of the logging era."

This may understate the longer term impact of logging via stream channeling and straightening done to move logs, as well as erosion when the hills lost their trees.

Full grasp of the article below is over my head, but if you search it for "logging" it argues that the loyalsock for ex was changed in enduring ways via stream channel widening, berms, erosion when trees were gone, etc. These changes might have ongoing effects on water temps and therefore use of bigger waters by moving trout now vs the pre logging era.

https://pubs.geoscienceworld.org/gsa/geosphere/article/12/1/305/132296/geomorphic-response-to-catastrophic-flooding-in

 

[salvelinusfontinalis]

Dave,

Thank you.

I agree with a lot of what you said believe it or not.
I do disagree that a brown trout is a brown trout.

All that said IMO im fine with admitting mouths are pinch points because they are. I think a C&R study on the Connie and Letort would be interesting but again can you see the mouth deteriorating?
I know you have been there. When its gone and its mostly just the falls i believe your return stock in May will drop.
Just my opinion.

So think of extending that mouth out and along that edge of the Connie. Not allowing the water to mix for awhile. Make gigantic plunge pools with the Letorts cold water. Fish that dont jump the falls can maybe summer over just there. It should be no fishing and its up to us to well mark it and police it. I bet you get what i think is "killing" the fish.

Just a thought.
.
In the end im just trying to sell you guys some inspirational thoughts.
Most anglers dont even know these migratory fish exist especially our few populations of brook trout.

I just want us to think of them, from time to time.

I think you understood that Dave.

 

[salvelinusfontinalis]

Kbob,

It might but if i told you what 2 of our states migratory brook Populations have gone through your mouth would drop.

Ask Chaz i know he found one that then disappeared for various reasons. Its a shame what these fish go through sometimes just to then fail.

The main population ive found are strong right now but could remain so. They have threats and half of them we can simpily control.
One of them is NOT removing a dam. Then you are opening it up to migratory brown trout! :-o :-o

 

[lycoflyfisher]

Ultimately imo the biggest impact on trout and really all fish populations in pa waterways can be tied to floodplain impacts. The logging and coal industries put roads along virtually every stream and hollow in pa. In the lower gradient valleys, streams were channelized and pushed to one side of the valley. We are constantly fighting the effects of infrastructure being too close to our waterways. Combine the lack of floodplain access with high amounts of impervious surface especially in the floodplain we have greatly increased storm water runoff rates and decreased retention time. This leads to flashier flows, which in incised systems cause severe bank erosion and channel downcutting. The bedload then travels downstream and is ultimately accumulating near stream mouths. Some ways to improve these conditions are to decommission unused or unneccessay roads that are in the floodway, better regulate future floodplain development, and improve floodplain access. Without protecting water quality and improving storm water management, no amount of special regulations will have a significant impact on fish populations is my humble opinion.

 

[salvelinusfontinalis]

I agree in most cases PA is never going to be what it was but a few places these brook trout exist and a few changes to habitat conditions and practices just might keep them going. By my estimates they have existed longer than 12 years now.
But face unique threats.

None of which are regulations .

Brown trout have that problem

 

[Brown71]

Dave W, that's a great post. And there are many other places, in addition to Susky River, that the same thing is occurring with large browns.

Cool stuff you cant ask for a better state to live in if big browns are your thing.

 

[Brown71]

On a side note, most fisherman, fly or spin that I meet, especially newer ones are way too caught up in fishing "name waters" for trout, and will never even take the time to find these gems that lie elsewhere.

 

[gulfgreyhound]

Browns are a migratory species. They migrate to spawn not unlike Salmon. I've seen and caught some nice fish in brookie streams over the years. I saw a big brown holed up in a brookie stream in New York. Probably a mile or more above the main stream . My friend Moose had caught a good one out of the same creek . Why was that fish there? water temperature, looking to spawn, or a good food source? I,ve seen them in other stream that don't feed into Lake Ontario as well. My experiences in Pa. are that during late August the browns move in ,into, creeks pre spawn. Some aren't 10 ft across yet the browns will be there. They didn't get big by being stupid.
I caught a small brown in a hole below a culvert that ran under a dirt road in North Georgia. That fish had to swim 100 yards plus from a small crick just to get to that spot. I guess that like the salmon it stuck it's nose into the current and swam toward ? upstream.
Ok , what about Spring drop back fish?
PhD Thesis for sure. GG

 

[SteveG]

Sal, I've always been of the opinion the harvest period should be greatly reduced, no different than hunting seasons for deer, turkey etc. The fact that they have such a long period of harvest is why most fisherman don't value them as much, in comparison to something such as deer.

 

[salvelinusfontinalis]

funny thing is thats from the other week or whatever. Today I caught a really good wild brookie. Im going to save it until you guys got cabin fever I think.

 

[troutbert]

As others have said, removing impassable barriers is probably one of the most important things that could be done.

What impassable dams or other structures still remain on the Conodoguinet and Breeches?

 

[troutbert]

Most of this talk about big browns running up from the Susquehanna River seems to be in the lower Susquehanna River area.

Why would that be? What is different about that particular area?

Do yinz think it's likely that the lakes behind the dams stratify in the summer, and that the browns are utilizing cold water at the bottoms of those lakes?

 

[moon1284]

I agree there are BT that migrate, and even ST (which I wouldn't have thought prior to some of your posts).

I disagree that they are genetically different from those that stay localized. A wild steelhead from a PNW is genetically identical to a wild rainbow trout from the same water (at least that's what ive read many times). I think it is response to environment that causes the fish to move, not genetics.

I do not think there are many brown trout that spend time in the Chesapeake bay, but honestly after seeing some of your pictures you may have a point.

As far as making "choke points" off limits to fishing, the easiest thing for pa to do is close trout season from mid to late october until aprik 1. The vast majority of these fish are caught during this time while they are migrating to spawn or while they were spawning. Unless im totally wrong and guys are hammering these fish at the mouths of tribs from may through September...

 

[troutbert]

moon1284 wrote:

I do not think there are many brown trout that spend time in the Chesapeake bay, but honestly after seeing some of your pictures you may have a point.

I don't think they are coming up from the Chesapeake Bay.

How would they get over the dams?

 

[moon1284]

That was directed at the OP

 

[salmonoid]

troutbert wrote:
Most of this talk about big browns running up from the Susquehanna River seems to be in the lower Susquehanna River area.

Why would that be? What is different about that particular area?

Do yinz think it's likely that the lakes behind the dams stratify in the summer, and that the browns are utilizing cold water at the bottoms of those lakes?

Very unlikely for a number of reasons. First, the water isn't that deep in most places. Conowingo pool is full of sediment and no one knows what to do about it; the other pools are filling up too. Second, even in the deep spots (say below the Pinnacle, where soundings show 100 feet or more depth), the difference in temperature from top to bottom isn't going to be that great. And The Deeps are an overall small feature, meaning the warm water is going to mix pretty easily with any deeper, cooler water.

I don't know where the fish come from, or how they survive year round, and there's not a lot of hard evidence to even quantify what number of fish we're talking about. An errant catch here or there doesn't make for a large scale migratory population, but I believe the only group that might actually have interest in studying this phenomena is academia; there are a number of Ph.D level studies that could come out of that, and that's the group I'd be beating the bush with to see if anyone has interest in studying this. What license sales increase will the PFBC see from this, if they were to invest study dollars? Minimal, if any, and that's the reality of how they are operating. If there's no return on investment, they're going to defer to others (note, for instance, where a large number of the unassessed water initiatives are being taken - colleges...).

 

[sarce]

Troutbert wrote:

Most of this talk about big browns running up from the Susquehanna River seems to be in the lower Susquehanna River area. Why would that be? What is different about that particular area?

Good question. I'm not sure there is anything special or different - it is just big water with a lot of food. I honestly think you can find this anywhere in PA with a clear run of no dams between "warmwater" rivers and strong source populations of browns in your typical trout sized waters. I'd be very interested in a tracking study that might shed more light on this (whether this type of movement is only in some watersheds and what factors in a watershed favor more migratory fish).