Biggest Native Pa Brookie?

Ltl J: The SE Pa. brook trout streams of which I spoke (with occasional 15 inch fish) include one limestoner and a couple of limestone influenced streams. The limestone influenced streams are not classic limestoners, but there is a very small amount of limestone in their geology.
Afish: The low number of 15 inch brookies and the good number of brookies up to 12 inches in these streams is dictated by age/natural mortality, limited big fish habiatat and, in two cases, limited amounts of forage. Genetic influences on growth always seem to be emphasized by anglers, but what anglers have typically done is taken the sensational or exceptional cases and tried to apply them to other species or waters as if the results in the exceptional cases could be the norm...much like many trout anglers do with the idea of special trout regulations. It just doesn't work that way. My reading on fish physiology says that genetics are a distant third with respect to fish growth following forage availability and growing season length.
 
I was fishing my favorite Laurel Highlands crik at a small plunge pool, maybe four feet across, when my BHPT suddenly jerked to the bottom. My immediate problem was that I was on top of/behind a boulder above the hole with a hemlock close by on the left and a brush pile on my right. I didn't want to yank the fish out of the water so the only thing I could do was slide down the boulder into the hole itself while keeping a tight leash on the trout. I ended up basically on top of the fish in about 2 feet of water. It turned out to be a 12' brookie, the nicest one I've ever seen up there. Definitely not a classic fight, but well worth the wet feet.

You may think I was nuts to even try the hole from that spot, but it was the only fishable access and when you are exepcting a 6" or 7" fish it isn't too bad.

The whole episode got my pulse going pretty good!
 
I have to agree with Mike about the genetics, the size gene is in every fish, what dictates size is available food and big fish habitat. One of the streams he's talking about has some very good big fish habitat and hardly ever is fished. Another stream he's talking about has long stretches of shallow poor habitat, but as soon as you fish decent habitat you fish brookies and some very nice ones. BTW the long shallow streches have few if any fish.
Getting back to where I've found really big brookies only two have come from Mountain freesstone streams.
 
Mike, I'm not sure what you meant when you said "...much like many trout anglers do with the idea of special trout regulations." Would you be so kind as to explain the meaning of that part of your statement? Thanks!
 
I don't wanna put words in his mouth, but my understanding is:

We as fishermen observe a special regulation section to really improve a stream. But we make the mistake of assuming that using special regs on a different stream would give the same result, and then lobby for special regs.

The same holds true for all management decisions, special regs, stocking, etc. Not all streams are made the same, and you need to find out what the limiting factors are for each stream before you can make any informed decisions on how to protect or improve it. I happen to agree with him. While special regs are good on some streams, I've seen them actually be harmful in other situations, where it just took a rarely fished stream and advertised it. And there's plenty of streams, most actually, where special regs would make no difference at all. If your limiting factor is habitat, water temperature, acidity issues, etc., then no management change is going to improve the situation because angler use wasn't the problem to begin with.

We simply assume our experiences are the norm and fit everywhere.
 
pcray, thanks for the input; however, I really want to hear this from Mike since he's a biologist for PFBC. In fact, I'd really be interested in his sharing his position on special reg's for trout, overall. I'm sure the basis for his position (the "WHY" behind his position) is founded on the results scientific assessment from his extensive time in the field.
 
pcray captured the essence of what I was trying to say with respect to wild trout in Pa.
 
Mike wrote:
pcray captured the essence of what I was trying to say with respect to wild trout in Pa.
Click to expand...
Mike, I don't know if this stream is out of your territory/jurisdiction, but maybe you could shed some light on the general "concept" of this move. I'm wondering why they're stocking trout further up in the West Branch of Fishing Creek (Sullivan Co) when there's already a natural reproduction of native/wild trout in the stream? This puzzles me.
 
I have doubts about the commission having ever considered wht the carrying capacity of a stream is before they put it under special regs. Maybe they did on a couple of limestone streams. Generally my perception is that they get a lot of pressure to make the decisions on Special regs that they make. Careto comment Mike?
 
I have caught two 11" native brookies, one in Otter Creek (WV) and one here in Franklin county. My best day ever was nearly fifteen years ago in Pocahontas Co, where I caught three between 10 and 10 1/2 inches, and two over 8". What is quite interesting is how accessible the stream is, yet there is little angling pressure. The stream is probably overshadowed by the many other fine waters of this area.

I have twice seen 12" natives, one caught by my brother in law on Seneca Creek and the other could not be hooked on a tributary to lower Seneca. Both have the potential to grow much larger natives.

I would not be surprised to learn there are natives in the 14" to 15" range in some of the better PA freestones, such as Slate Run. I found the natives of Francis Branch to be of better than average size. I think one could create a normal curve based off the data collected during electrofishing, and calculate the probability of a certain length fish existing.

I have seen some fine brook trout in Big Spring, but do not know whether they are considered wild or natives. It would be interesting if this water could be restricted to brook trout only. I don't think they would grow as large as brown trout, but they would grow even larger than they do currently. It would likely become the best brook trout fishery in the state.
 
egillispie,
I agree that the Big Spring Brookies ought to be protected from browns and 'bows. As you may be aware, there was at one time a fish barrier several hundred yards below the "ditch" that no longer exists. It may have been pointless to have it there as browns and 'bows appeared to be escaping from the hatchery at the upper end. With the hatchery closed now, I'd like to see some form of barrier put back. Alas, the powers-that-be didn't agree and the last concrete remnant of the barrier was knocked out this winter. These days, rainbows seem to be doing very well in BSC but the brookies are spawning too. Last week I caught an 11" in the ditch - the largest wild brookie I have caught in PA in over 20 years. I remember seeing some much bigger brookies in the ditch back in the 80s but, as Mike pointed out, their source was suspect.
 
You guys seem to have found some very nice brookies! On most of the brookie streams that I fished the majority of the fish were from 2 to 6 inches. The occasional 8 incher was a treat. I have only seen a few 10 plus inchers. Whatever their size though, those native Pa. brookies are still the pretiest fish I have ever caught.

salvelinusfontinalis, too bad that I did not get to know you when I lived in se Pa. The last couple years there I made a real effort to find wild brown water in se Pa. I was pleasantly surprised at what I found, but no native brookies. I grew up in Chester Co, and knowing what I do now there are a few places that I would like to explore more.
 
There are bigger fish out there. They are just on streams nobody fishes. I know of a few of these streams. They just don't always look like they could possibly hold big fish. But they do. As I said before I lived on one of these streams and the streams nearby were almost identical. Very small streams coming from spring fed lakes, flowing under hemlocks for miles and occassionally through a meadow or pasture, but still holding brook trout even down stream. One day two guys from the fish commission came and parked in our yard. They got out and headed across the road. The creek that flowed under the road was the smaller sister stream of the stream that ran in our back yard. They were in the woods only a few minutes and hardly out of sight while electro-shocking. After only a few pools they made their way back across the road. I stopped them and asked them how they did. They said they there were plenty and I told them that if they wanted they could check my back yard, that there were two under the farm bridge about 14" and several others in the same pool. They told me that they were satisfied and that was it, they left. That just sounded crazy to me, how could they over look so much water. The creek that they electro shocked had hardly any holding water in the area that they electro-shocked. I thought to myself they must be lazy, if they were to have continued upstream a half mile they would have fould dozens of fallen hemlocks and deep pools with larger trout and even further up some big deep hole and one very deep hole below an old broken stone dam with a beaver dam above it. So I am saying that the PFBC dosn't even come remotely close to surveying most of the water in PA. I could have pointed the fish out to them but I'm glad I didn't and I hope the people who live there now are ignorant as well, because there should be dozens and dozens of 9 to 12 inch brookies all up and down those streams still. It was only a decade or so ago.
 
My buddy still lives up there, at this point I feel like planning a 3 hour drive to visit him just so I can spend a half day fishing and taking some pictures to document the stream it's fish and some of the interesting things I had come across in the forest. I'm tellin' you it's a sure thing. I know it is probablably still the same. Unless someone else wised up and told all their friends. I will not name the stream on this site, no way. Forget it. And if you think I should your wrong. The only reason I found out was because when we moved there the old man that owned the farmhouse said he used to dip a worm in at the bridge every once in a while and bring up some dinner. And I will admit that as a teen not knowing any better I had taken two from the stream 12" and 14" inches but they weren't the only big ones. There were about one that size in every deeper hole you would come across. Smaller ones were anywhere. There were also a few chubs or minnows but that was it.
 
Jakes, no need to name the stream. Simple gps coordinates will do!
 
I saw a dead wild brookie in the middle of a long unstocked section in a berks county stream. It was every bit of 14 inches. The stream is not stocked with brookies.

I have fished the section and caught smaller fish. I have spotted a few bigger fish in there too. The section also holds wild brown trout, but the section is not class A for them either.

I have caught some 9 inch fish in Virginia.
 
Well, looks like I'll have too join Youtube later this year and make a short movie with me in it and co-starring some of the locals just to quiet all of the nay sayers. Until then I'll just keep my mouth shut. It really gets me when someone craps all over what you have to say in a condescending way. All I can say is during my high school years, when I lived in Northeastern PA, I ate, slept, and sh*t in the woods more times than anyone know. Just a backpack with a one man tent, cheap folding stove, chicken noodle soup, map, no compass, and an ultra-lite spinning rod. Yeah I spent more than a day at a time exploring the wilds on occassion.
 
JakesLeakyWaders wrote:
Well, looks like I'll have too join Youtube later this year and make a short movie with me in it and co-starring some of the locals just to quiet all of the nay sayers. Until then I'll just keep my mouth shut. It really gets me when someone craps all over what you have to say in a condescending way. All I can say is during my high school years, when I lived in Northeastern PA, I ate, slept, and sh*t in the woods more times than anyone know. Just a backpack with a one man tent, cheap folding stove, chicken noodle soup, map, no compass, and an ultra-lite spinning rod. Yeah I spent more than a day at a time exploring the wilds on occassion.
Click to expand...

That's what I call dedication. I'll be fishing much the same way a lot this season. I have to have my coffee too.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Latest posts

Montana Angler Fly Fishing
Montana Angler Fly Fishing
Harman's North Fork Cottages
Wayward Trading”/> </center> </div> </div> </div> <div class=


Real Time Data From
the USGS Site

Share this page

Back
Top