Big Fish Question

[SteveG]

I should clarify, as what I mean is when people say "migratory browns"as if they are a different species. All brown trout move around through a watershed, and the general observation seems to be that it is size/age related.

Denoting specific fish as migratory, places lesser value on other fish and streams. I feel it's the movement patterns (of all the fish) that is really important in the big picture (not separating water with designations like coldwater, warmwater, Class A, etc). The Susquehanna River likely has the largest brown trout in Pennsylvania, yet for all intents and purposes it isn't a "trout stream".

 

[jifigz]

SteveG wrote:
I should clarify, as what I mean is when people say "migratory browns"as if they are a different species. All brown trout move around through a watershed, and the general observation seems to be that it is size/age related.

Denoting specific fish as migratory, places lesser value on other fish and streams. I feel it's the movement patterns (of all the fish) that is really important in the big picture (not separating water with designations like coldwater, warmwater, Class A, etc). The Susquehanna River likely has the largest brown trout in Pennsylvania, yet for all intents and purposes it isn't a "trout stream".

I agree but yes, all fish move this time of year..and they don't have to move far to be considered migrating .just a general location change. But yes, the Susky is holding some monsters right now .

 

[SurfCowboyXX]

A bass and walleye fisherman friend of mine routinely catches monster brown trout from the area around the Dauphin Narrows every year on stickbaits and jerkbaits. He has two photos of him holding what have to be 7+lb browns with blue smears on their cheeks the size of a half-dollar.

 

[JeffP]

What time of year did these bags go up? That would be awesome to see. Did people catch them? I am guessing a mix of stockers, wilds, and holdovers. A telemetry study on these fish would be fascinating. That would take the mystery out of it though!

 

[TimMurphy]

Dear Jeff,

They usually air up the Fiber-Dam in early May. The actual date depends a lot on how much water is pushing through the river at the time but it is generally done around May 10th give ot take a few days.

Regards,

Tim Murphy

 

[salvelinusfontinalis]

Not doubt Mike.
That statement sounded more like emotional opinion than fact.

 

[larkmark]

Mike and salvellinus- All I will say is that a small stream that once had a yearly population of "migratory" Brown Trout and was unlisted was "discovered" by Pa Fish Comm and listed and then stream "improvement" was done on a small stretch. The migratory fish have not shown up since the structures were put in (years now). Mainly I think because the structures have caused a great deal of silt to fill in the habitat that was used by these fish. Since no real follow up study is done in a scientific manner on most if not all of these stream improvement projects it should not be a surprise to find out that some of them do not work out for all parties concerned , be they aquatic or two legged . Portions of this stream held a small population of small wild fish but from what I can tell they are also gone. I think it is very likely that the Fish Comm was not even aware of the presence of the large seasonal migrating fish.

 

[moon1284]

Pretty simple, big browns move from bigger water to smaller water to spawn in the fall. Happens everywhere. Same thing with rainbows in the spring. They are in the same water the same time of the year to spawn.

If people want to call it seasonal migration so they can convince themselves they arent fishing for spawning fish that's fine but to be clear this isnt a rare phenomenon, it's just plain old spawning.

 

[salvelinusfontinalis]

Likely weren't and im not going to say we should start announcing them all either.

But isnt it in bad form to kinda blast them for something they werent aware of when anyone of us with the info withholds it?

So tell no one isnt always the best?

Just saying....

Not looking to argue in all honesty. It is something many of us with info on migratory trout population info struggle with.

 

[salvelinusfontinalis]

potamodromous (not comparable) (of a migratory fish) that migrates within fresh water only.

The correct term.

But most people get migratory.

 

[salvelinusfontinalis]

Moon,

Is it a migratory fish if i target them in the big river after spawn and am i not fishing for them while not in spawn?

This is how i have been targeting most of mine
That and in the summer.

To me, to prove the therory on a given watershed. You must catch them in the big river not the tribs after spawn.
You can do it if you study the mouths of the tribs up and downstream. There are similarities between habitat and structure in most big river migratory fish habitat

 

[moon1284]

Sal-

Yes I agree with your post above. Finding and catching these fish in the summer in big water is impressive. Finding them and catching them in small water while they are moving to spawn isn't that hard or impressive.

 

[salvelinusfontinalis]

Sorry let me be clear.

I target them in the summer in the tribs.
Not stressed fish but healthy ones.

Then i target them in the big river in winter/early spring.

 

[larkmark]

salvellinus- Right. i am not looking to argue either.

In the case I mentioned I think it is likely the large "migrators" were also breeders and were the real reason for the small stream to have any wild fish population. Had there been more thorough study BEFORE taking the radical step of questionable stream improvement perhaps things would have turned out better. And of course the lack of follow up study would have revealed something too. In my opinion they screwed up.

 

[salvelinusfontinalis]

Lark,

Fair enough and a valid point.
I have heard the no follow up study before and there is validity in that thought.

 

[Brown71]

Thanks all you guys for the good conversation! Some good replies.

And moon1284 - I agree totally this is not rare or uncommon. I regularly fish about 4 different places where this phenomenon happens each fall. What intrigues me is some spots having more fish, some spots having fewer fish but true giants, etc. It’s just fun as can be and I love the exploration. I’ve checked out 2 new places already this week plus fished 2 old standbys.

And trust me, I’m not kidding myself at all about what these large fish are coming too small water to do. And that’s spawn. I don’t fish for fish on redds, at all. But I love the opportunity and I have zero problem fishing for the pre and post spawn fish. By the looks of where I’m fishing and the fact that I’ve been doing so for 20 plus years I don’t seem to be hurting anything.

Larkmark, I agree about not telling anyone lol. I learned that a long time ago. Especially when your dealing with 25 plus inch trout. People get stupid. I do no pics on social media and have only done a limited amount on here a few years back. My dad and 1 good friend are about all that ever are with me.

 

[Stenonema]

Movement was the factor good enough for taxonomists to separate strains of brown trout forever. If you want to protect something first you must identify it exists. People will not protect a ghost. Then you must believe it worthy of protection. The brown trout is a complex species. Why when a rainbow runs to the lake and returns it is a Steelhead and when a Brown trout runs and returns from the ocean much less a lake it is still a brown trout? People aren't ready to call them Loch Leven. Movement was the defining separation characteristic of strains. I'm not making it up... Research it yourself. Brown71 is describing Loch Leven characteristics according to all historical accounts. We have completely failed to recognize and manage for fish like these. They pop up in the places we have forgotten about and left alone. They are the best survivors we have. They have the greatest genetic diversity or ability to adapt. These are the blue ribbon crop, they are what people want their picture with holding, these are the trout people travel the world in the hopes of catching, these are the trout that drive people to fish passionately, buy more gear. Trout like these alone can drive an entire industry and we have never ever in the history of Pennsylvania directly managed for trout like these and all they offer because they are just a brown trout. Well that's what they do. They are all just stocked trout. The question is when are the anglers of Pennsylvania ready to believe in a greater potential. A potential that some of us have experienced and witnessed. When will we be ready to make this intentional rather than accidental. Something I just learned that makes a lot of sense and is further evidence of the Loch Leven strain. The trout of Loch Leven have a higher tolerance of acidic water. I have witnessed a stream be removed from the stocking list because it was too acidic for the brook trout. The brown trout have colonized it. Anyway glad to see this conversation continues after all these years of being away... Does anyone remember those conversations....

 

[Stenonema]

I needed to say this in my first thread on this forum 7 years ago. It was so difficult to have this conversation then.


I'm looking for an opinion on how best to protect an area. I'm not looking to cut hairs on wording or definitions. I thought I made it clear but I will do my best to make it more clear. I am passionate and failure is not an option for me. I don't want to hear what the Pa FBC can't do. There exists a population of wild brown trout in a constant state of migration. Class A depending on where and when you take the census. They grow quite large due to the migration from nursery waters to the larger stream where food is more prevalent. From there they migrate throughout sometimes stacking in certain riffles and runs depending on what hatch is on. Experience has taught me how to hit this moving target. Every year regardless of weather a large percentage of the population make their spawning run. The trout move in and stack off the mouth and begin trickling in on rain events. Some will not come in till much later. There are 30 or 40 adult fish holding there as of yesterday. My concern is that under current regulations there is very little protection for these fish. They are easily most vulnerable when they stack prior to running especially in the heat of summer. The word is slowly leaking out.
The conundrum: Be proactive and seek official protection and expose it or remain silent and try to protect it as I have. I see advantages and disadvantages for both sides. I am interested in what you would do. I hope this helps because I don't wish to bandy words.

Posted on: 2012/9/15 11:23

 

[Brown71]

Stenonema, your first post is a great one. You have experienced/believe many of the same things I do. I agree 100 percent.

These fish are awesome, strong, survivors. That’s where I got such a passion for chasing them.

And you are accurate on the acidic thought. I am experiencing the same thing. I am fairly consistently catching large(27 in. plus) browns from a river that almost no one, and I mean no one believes there are any trout other than a few that get in from stocked tribs. Cool stuff.

As far as your second post, please check your pm. I will tell you what I think I would do.