Bait fishing on the Little J

[tomgamber]

FarmerDave wrote:
If it is legal, and what you kill is consumed, then ethics is not an issue. OK, there is also nothing unethical about killing varmints either (without eating them), and that includes groundhogs, and carp.

I have no problem believing that most of the deer killed s consumed in one form or another. But the deer populations in the forests are not what they used to be and in the suburbs they are out of control. I think they could be managed better. I don't really care what varmints you kill. But I could eat a lot of 7 inch native brookies throughout the year but ethically I think its wrong...I've also seen guys with their deer hanging out on opening day and more than one of them look like something Paris Hilton would carry under her skanky little arms.

 

[FarmerDave]

I never said it was all eaten. all I said is if it is, then there is nothing unethical about it. there are certainly unethical hunters out there.

Don't get me wrong, I hear you Tom. I rarely keep wild trout, too. But is it an ethical thing? Maybe, but that is still a personal opinion. I certainly don't feel guilty when I eat stocked trout. And on the rare occasion I eat wild trout, I don't feel guilty. and if I did it more often, i wouldn't feel guilty. I just enjoy catching them more than eating them, and then there is that do onto other thing (let others enjoy).

As far as the deer population goes... I used to see 50 or more deer on opening day 30 some years ago. Now if I hunt the same spots, I'd be lucky to see 10 or 12. On the other hand, of those 50 plus, maybe 1 or 2 would be a scrawny buck. Of the 10 or 12 I might see now, 3 to 5 might be buck and a whole lot nicer ones at that. No, numbers wise the population isn't what it once was. But it is a whole lot healthier in my opinion and i don't have trouble finding any. The suburbs are another story though. Politics override good management in the suburbs.

As far as the ethics of shooting a yearling go... Which would you rather eat, lamb or mutton? Yearling deer taste a whole lot better than the 6 or 7 year old bucks. I may even specifically try to harvest one of those yearlings this year. TASTEY!!! But then, you won't see it hanging in my front yard. I'd get laughed out of the neighborhood.

For the record, you won't see any deer hanging in my front yard. That is just plain stupid.

P.S. I didn't use veal as an example because I don't eat it. I never really cared for it or the way so called "good veal" is raised (speaking of ethics).

 

[salvelinusfontinalis]

well siad squaretail, though i belive they shouldnt be excluded from the little j, they do have TONS more water. i dont belive spin fishing has a BIG advantage of flyfishing. there are disadvantages and advantages for both ways of fishing. they can cast faster and cover more water, i can throw mayflys and lightly present a dryfly to the surface film of the water without spooking a trout. panther martins tend to SPLASH! :-D

 

[Squaretail]

Theres a reason spec-reg waters were created in the first place and its NOT because flyfishermen are self centered snob elitists.
Well.........not all.

 

[fly_N_ice]

Farmer Dave:

Nope, can’t beat that. I haven’t caught the bamboo bug yet. Actually, I swapped a bamboo rod at this year’s Jam with the sole condition that it be refinished and fished; I have no doubt it’s in good hands.

Tom:

My intent with the bow fishing analogy was just that – “intent.” It is not my intent to gut hook any fish while bait fishing, it happens, but it is not my “intent.” It is, however, the “intent” of the bow fisher to pierce a fish with an arrow. Mortality???

Sal:

You’re right, you never said ban bait fishers. But you did suggest I read an article on hooks. I use circle hooks (Gamakatsu Octopus Circle #10), but I prefer Daiichi Wide Gap Bait Hooks #10.

Squaretail:

“Theres a heck of alot more waters for spin/baitmen than flymen.”

You’ve got to be kidding. I’ve seen FFO and ALO sections, but I’ve never seen a “Bait Fishing Only” section. Assuming the water is open to fish, a fly rodder can fish anytime, anywhere. It’s the bait fishers who are denied water.

afishinado:

I still feel Mr. Anderson has an agenda. Is his problem with bait fishers, mortality, or invasive species? If he “lectured” me on the errors of my legal fishing methods, I, too, would make him sick with body gestures.

Page 26 of the 2007 PA Fishing Laws and Regulations Summary Book states:

“#8 Cut the line.

When it is not possible to remove the hook without harming the fish, cut the line. Only a small piece of line should be left on the hook to ease passage through the digestive system. Research has documented that cutting the line can greatly increase the survival of deeply hooked fish.

These baiters were using worms, where does the “dumping of buckets” enter this picture?

Hank

 

[FarmerDave]

fly_N_ice wrote:

I still feel Mr. Anderson has an agenda. Is his problem with bait fishers, mortality, or invasive species? If he “lectured” me on the errors of my legal fishing methods, I, too, would make him sick with body gestures.

Hank

I agree. It sounds like he really lectured them, and if it were me, i'd have given more than body gestures. Simply talking to them would have been more effective. As it turned out, he only deepened the rift between fly anglers and all other anglers. Guys like him are the reason why we get sideways looks when we fly fish in open waters. And someone should remind Mr. Anderson that Brown Trout are also an invasive species.

 

[Squaretail]

As I said before theres a reason spec-reg waters were created in the first place. Spinners, bobbers and 2 ounce sinkers arent very conducive to fly fishing. Most flymen I know dont even go out 1st day or mid season stockings anymore. Spin fishermen more often than not have the advantage especially now that they are going down to 4 and 2 lb test and the minnows are flying out the door at my work. I see and here reports everyday from bait/spinfishermen. After they get done telling me of all the fish they caught and how they just got done feeding the neighborhood, they want me to tell them where else they can go cause it sucks where they are fishing anymore.
No. I'm not kidding you.
I once had 2 men all the way down here wanting mesh bags so they can creel the very largest trout they catch out of the Little J.
Ofcourse cutting the line greatly increases the trouts chances to live compared to tearing its guts out and ensuring its death.
I have to admit though, when the ice came this past winter and the Ice Men were stopping in and they were so happy for ice finally, they were fun as heck.

 

[FarmerDave]

Squaretail, I have no doubt you are telling the truth. that attitude always amazes me, but the current system of regulations and stocking encourages that. Opening day is a joke. A macho contest. Like i always say. Stop stocking the trout streams and instead open the hatcheries to fishing. The stringer draggers will be happy and it will take the heat off of wild populations.

 

[shipnfish2006]

I get a good laugh out of how the PFBC puts up on their stream reports and so and so caught his limit in 15 minutes on the first day. Pretty much encouraging people to keep whatever they catch. I get such a laugh out of people who are just out there to get a limit in the shortest amount of time possible. Last year I fished the first day because its a family tradition and it was my first day out because of tax season. I had a hole that really only one person could fish and I had people above me and below me begging me to give them fish I was catching just so they could "top off" their limits. It truly is a macho contest of I caught my 5 before you so im better then you.

 

[JackM]

Speaking of giving away fish to fill out limits, not a lot of people realize that the way the regulations work, a fish given away like this counts against both the receiver and the giver's limit. So, if you fill up your buddy's stringer of 2 fish with 3 fish that you caught, once you get two more on your stringer, you are done for the day (except to C&R) because you have reached your limit of 5.

 

[troutbert]

I agree that mortality from deep hooking may be affecting the trout population on the Little Juniata and Spring Creek.

But other similar streams have worse management problems. Kish Creek and Bald Eagle Creek (from Spring Creek to the lake) are both central PA limestone streams with wild brown trout populations, just like the Little Juniata.

But on both of these streams, you are allowed to harvest 5 fish per day in the regular season, and 3 fish per day during the extended season.

Isn't the effect of that on the population going to be much greater than the incidental deep hooking mortality on C&R streams? So Kish Creek and Bald Eagle (below Spring Cr) are the places where you have the greater potential to see a really large increase in the trout population through a management change.

 

[salvelinusfontinalis]

yes i did suggest you read an article just like one might suggest you throw this fly over that fly. what i did doesnt make me a snob but assuming iam might make you one? something to think about.

 

[Squaretail]

Sure enough I gill hooked a 5 in wild brownie yestreday.
Services will be held at 5:00 on monday at Clarks valley.