A November Walk...and more

[salvelinusfontinalis]

 

[Tups]

I'm a biologist. It occurs to me that if you increase the number of prey in similar proportion to the number of predators you introduce, the net effect on the popn and carrying capacity may be negligible, resulting in the maintenance of a stable popn.

 

[Mike]

Many streams do not need to be at carrying capacity in order to have excellent fishing. This is indirectly supported and demonstrated here by comments from a number of anglers who have stated how good the fishing is in some Class B and Class C streams, which by definition are carrying a much lower standing stock than Class A streams. They may be at their individual carrying capacities, but those carrying capacities are lower than those of the Class A streams.

Carrying capacities are defined by limiting factors and a primary limiting factor across Pa wild trout streams is low flow, which is least likely to occur in spring when most trout are stocked and excess carrying capacity is theoretically present. Additionally, as described many times in the past, wild trout stream biomasses in Pa streams, using unstocked Class A's as examples, have been found to be lower in spring than in summer, and not just because of slightly increased widths. At the same time macroinvertebrate biomasses are generally highest in spring and cyclically diminish as hatches occur.

Finally, it appears to be oft-forgotten that the first 80 plus Class A streams that were removed from the stocking program in 1983 had all supported Class A biomasses despite more intensive stocking on average, higher angling pressure, and much greater interest in harvest...1 million licensed anglers, no trout stamp required, two million more trout being stocked, only 10 percent of anglers practicing C&R on stocked streams.

 

[afishinado]

Mike wrote:
Many streams do not need to be at carrying capacity in order to have excellent fishing. This is indirectly supported and demonstrated here by comments from a number of anglers who have stated how good the fishing is in some Class B and Class C streams, which by definition are carrying a much lower standing stock than Class A streams. They may be at their individual carrying capacities, but those carrying capacities are lower than those of the Class A streams.

Carrying capacities are defined by limiting factors and a primary limiting factor across Pa wild trout streams is low flow, which is least likely to occur in spring when most trout are stocked and excess carrying capacity is theoretically present. Additionally, as described many times in the past, wild trout stream biomasses in Pa streams, using unstocked Class A's as examples, have been found to be lower in spring than in summer, and not just because of slightly increased widths. At the same time macroinvertebrate biomasses are generally highest in spring and cyclically diminish as hatches occur.

Finally, it appears to be oft-forgotten that the first 80 plus Class A streams that were removed from the stocking program in 1983 had all supported Class A biomasses despite more intensive stocking on average, higher angling pressure, and much greater interest in harvest...1 million licensed anglers, no trout stamp required, two million more trout being stocked, only 10 percent of anglers practicing C&R on stocked streams.

^ No doubt. The main purpose for my post above was to point out the fact that stocking a thriving wild trout stream with a Class A or B population is, and was done for "social" reasons (your term) and not as some sort of practice that does something to enhance or help the wild trout that inhabit the stream. "It doesn't really harm" is not the same as saying it does anything to help.

Let's talk about "social reasons" for not stocking wild trout streams. The fact is a Class A or even a B has more than enough fish to offer a high quality and natural angler experience without stocking trout. In fact that is pretty much the PFBC definition of a Class A stream.

In this world full of artificial and fake things, it's great to have something that's real and natural like fishing a stream with a thriving population of wild trout. Many of us on here have a great appreciation for wild trout and enjoy the experience and opportunity to fish for them. Stocking such a place ruins this experience, and I contend it harms, but let's suffice it to say, it certainly does nothing to help the wild trout that inhabit the stream.

Most FFers on here don't care about places like Keystone trout areas. It matters little if the Keystone fish were 25 inches or 25lbs .....nothing can replace the experience of fishing a wild trout stream or river.

Loving to fly-fish for wild trout and being single, every year I made one and sometimes several trips out to Montana, and I also had a place to stay and fish along the Delaware River and fished it nearly every weekend.

I got married 14 years ago; with the wedding and looking for a house, that spring and summer I didn't fish the D much, and had no trip planned to Montana. So my new wife, feeling my pain, booked a fishing weekend for me at a Spruce Creek lodge. It was a two day one night stay with meals for six anglers, I believe, with a guide. Anyway, we all met up at the lodge. The guide introduced himself and talked about how we will be fishing. We were all standing along the creek at the time and the guide pulls out a big bag of dog food, scoops up a heaping scoop, and flings it into the stream. Huge steelhead-sized rainbows and browns appeared in a frenzy and began to devour the dog chow. The guys around me ooh'd and aah'd........I just rolled my eyes :roll:

 

[Dave_W]

afishinado wrote:

I got married 14 years ago..... So my new wife, feeling my pain, booked a fishing weekend for me at a Spruce Creek lodge. It was a two day one night stay with meals for six anglers, I believe, with a guide. Anyway, we all met up at the lodge. The guide introduced himself and talked about how we will be fishing. We were all standing along the creek at the time and the guide pulls out a big bag of dog food, scoops up a heaping scoop, and flings it into the stream. Huge steelhead-sized rainbows and browns appeared in a frenzy and began to devour the dog chow. The guys around me ooh'd and aah'd

The horror! :-o

 

[afishinado]

Dave_W wrote:

The horror! :-o

LOL....and I nervously dug into my fly box to see if I had any pellet flies!....just kidding.

But seriously, I for one think it's a shame that one of the premier limestone spring creeks in the east is stocked with huge pellet-fed trout rather than being a fantastic natural haven for wild trout.

Some people think that's okay. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, I guess.

I have plenty of stories! I ended buying a house in Chester County in a small development. At the time, there was a vacant house on the corner on a beautiful piece of property.

About a year after I moved in, it was bought by building contractor to live there with his family. The land surrounding the house had a good sized lawn, but also had several acres of the most beautiful trees you have ever seen; oaks and maples mixed in with hemlocks and white birches.

The contractor razed the house and built new one and.....you guessed it!....bulldozed down all the beautiful trees growing there to plant a lawn.

Now it's just a huge lawn with few non-native ornamental trees planted in a row.

 

[troutbert]

If "less is more" for fish populations, what is the purpose of the PFBC?

What is its mission?

 

[afishinado]

troutbert wrote:
If "less is more" for fish populations, what is the purpose of the PFBC?

What is its mission?

Good questions ^

I can only give you my answers / opinions.

The answer is really twofold.

First, the FBC exists to protect and preserve the rivers, streams and lakes of PA and all their flora and fauna.

Second, the PFBC exists to serve the paying customer; the fishing license and tackle buying anglers that pay license fees and excise taxes on fishing equipment.

^Sometimes the second is first and the first is second.

I for one think the PFBC does an okay job balancing the two, it's not an easy task. There is pressure by anglers to stock this and do that, as well as politicians pulling for this and commercial interests pushing for that.....and the FBC is right in the middle.

Many of the decisions made by the FBC are not for biological reasons they are for social reasons > to satisfy the customer. I understand that 100%. If something is popular and does not harm the resource, too much anyway, it likely will be permitted, which is okay in some cases. I guess it all depends on one's perspective.

While wild trout preservationists are a very small minority, all of us must stay vigilant and vocal when business misson begins to override or harm the preservation mission.

 

[Chaz]

In my judgement I always think stocked fish first if its from a stream that is stocked, then I look at color, the fins, the eye spot, the spotting pattern, and the red adipose fin as indicators.

The main thing holding back the Breeches is temperature. What are the summertime high water temperatures? that is the first thing I look at as a limiting factor when judging if a stream could support a wild trout population. Then you have to look at the general habitat. If those 2 factors are the main limiting factors, then the stream has nature preventing it from becoming a truly wild fishery.

 

[sarce]

I don't have much experience with the YB, so take this with a large grain of salt, but my $0.02...Temp only limits when there are no refuge areas that are accessible. Think PENNS - gets awfully low and warm but it's class A because the fish use a network of tributaries and springs to survive. I find it hard to believe that a stream in a limestone valley like the YB wouldn't have enough springs and small, cold tributaries that a large trout population couldn't find a way through the hot part of summer. Additionally, I've run into quite a few one-off wild browns in places around the state in waters that most of the summer are far too warm for trout (80-85 degree water in summer). If they have a place to escape the heat, they will find it. I would also think the limestone nature and stable flows take away the low-flow argument against a higher carrying capacity.

But there could be other limiting factors, especially sediment. Maybe in-stream cover as well, the sections I've fished were kind of featureless.

 

[afishinado]

Chaz wrote:
In my judgement I always think stocked fish first if its from a stream that is stocked, then I look at color, the fins, the eye spot, the spotting pattern, and the red adipose fin as indicators.

The main thing holding back the Breeches is temperature. What are the summertime high water temperatures? that is the first thing I look at as a limiting factor when judging if a stream could support a wild trout population. Then you have to look at the general habitat. If those 2 factors are the main limiting factors, then the stream has nature preventing it from becoming a truly wild fishery.

Hey Chaz, have you heard of Boiling Spring?...well the water isn't really boiling....it's a spring! Plus there are many other springs along the breeches.

Dave Weaver invited Mo, Dave Kile and me to fish the Breeches last winter. DaveW wanted to show off how well the stream fished for wild trout. I recall catching a whole bunch of wild browns that day in just a few hours of fishing; and that was in "off" season when fishing is tough!

Talk to Tom Balz, he lives near there and guides and fishes it nearly every day. Tell him you think the Breeches is a marginal stream with thermal issues holding back the wild trout population...see what he says.

No, I'm not advocating fishing the YB or any other stream in the summer when the temps soar. But like sarce posted above about Penns Creek, streams can be great wild trout streams if there are tribs or springs to keep the water cool enough for trout right through the summer.

Wild trout are alive and well and thriving in the YB like Dave Weaver posted in an earlier thread.

 

[SteveG]

Temp is definitely not a limiting factor for wild trout on the Breeches, but it can be for the stockies. There are a number of limestone springs along it's length, the largest being in Boiling Springs.