1958 Sports Illustrated Story On Penns Creek

[Hook_Jaw]

Fishing creek other then the c@r has got much worse in my opinion. Penns has always done well for me over the years some better then others. Spring Creek always has been good over the years. The best way to tell was when the cicada came off. Spring and Penns were unreal best time of my life fishing.

 

[troutbert]

It's interesting that "Sparse Grey Hackle" wrote about the Green Drake hatch on Penns Creek in such glowing terms in 1958, and Marinaro wrote about it as a "fraud" or some such terms, in 1955, in his book The Dry Fly Code.

He described the guys from the Cumberland Valley driving up for the famous Green Drake hatch and generally finding it disappointing.

 

[Hook_Jaw]

I have never done well in the green drake hatch on penns I guess I don't now how to fish it when it comes off fishing ck c@r i usually go over a night and do well.

 

[Squaretail]

He described the guys from the Cumberland Valley driving up for the famous Green Drake hatch and generally finding it disappointing.

Heck, thats how I feel today. I can go to streams with a much less prolific drake hatch and catch far more trout.
But the bugs themselves on that stream are the true draw for me during that hatch. Its really something and an event we should all witness once. Havent gone up for it in maybe 6 years, but I should probably show it to Atlantisboy this year.
Its time.

 

[GreenWeenie]

Pcray,

I totally disagree with your fist paragraph of your initial post.

First, a PFBC list of upwards of a thousand class A streams is not “outing” those streams it is nothing more than a listing of all class A streams in PA. Outing is the intentional singling out of any stream in a stand-alone forum for all to see whether internet, newspaper, or magazine and this is the part you are choosing to ignore. All the PFBC has done is provided a comprehensive listing of class A streams and that’s it. Some are definitely better than others but the list doesn’t identify which ones and nobody can tell which are the better ones from the list. Now if that person wants to research each stream and pull up PFBC biologist reports to figure out which ones are the best, that’s great and I commend them for that and I wholeheartedly believe the PFBC should have the information available to anyone who wants to search their site and take the time to figure it out. That’s not outing a stream that’s providing information in the public domain that is available for people to review - it’s not shoving a particular stream in the face of thousands and thousands of people that begs FISH ME I’M BETTER THAN ALL THE OTHER STREAMS AND HERE’S WHY!!!.

Second, every last one that is one public property gets fished regularly? Where did you get that stat? I’ve fish several that never see anybody. And by coincidence those streams aren’t talked about.

Third, if people have good experiences fishing them they are going to get talked about. Talked about where? Not everyone talks about where they fish. Some may tell nobody, some may tell a select few they can trust and some may blab it to the world. Me finding a stream and telling a friend about it that isn’t outing that stream. My friend even telling another friend about it isn’t even outing that stream. Posting a glorifying stream report on a fishing forum that singles it out from others is outing the stream. Even when the PFBC posts biologist reports they only announce new biologist report posted for streams X, Y and Z they don’t announce it as, “Holy crap you should see the biomasses in this stream, check out this report it’s incredible CLICK HERE.” Big difference.

Fourth, it’s just that way and there’s nothing you or I can do about it. Yes there is, keep your mouth shut if you find a hidden gem and only share it with those who you most closely trust. I have no problem with people sharing streams with other people but I do have a problem with the glorifying and publicizing of hidden gem streams on the internet for every ***** to read about.

You seem to think that there’s nothing anyone can do because we live in a world of technology and it’s all due to technology but it’s not. My PC doesn’t drive itself to a stream, fish, and then drive back home and hook itself back up to the internet and write and post a stream report all by itself. It is still man that is responsible for outing a stream and now in 2013 there is simply a new media available – the internet – than what was available in 1958 when it was newspaper and magazines. And the internet is real time. A magazine article talking about a green drake hatch might not be published until July when it’s over. A stream report today talking about today’s green drake hatch is real time.

 

[JackM]

"First, a PFBC list of upwards of a thousand class A streams is not “outing” those streams...."

What? It ceratinly is outing those streams. It just outs them all and gives anglers their choices. This is why a free flow of information isn't bad. It is the restricting of information that causes certain waters to be "singled out." There is some circular logic being applied here. "It is OK to talk about some streams, but not others." What is the result of that? Simply put: the singling out of some streams over all others.

 

[GreenWeenie]

You’re right, naming 1000 streams could be interpreted as outing them but the reality is it isn’t singling out any one particular stream out as being better than the others. Therefore some streams, even though named on the list, never really go onto the radar screen simply because they haven’t been separated from the others. Those that get their name tossed around the internet end up being separated.

The NFL, MLB, NBA, or NHL issues a listing of the projected top 100 draft picks in alphabetical order. Unless you really follow that sport and know what you are reading you have no idea who is the projected #1 pick and who is the projected #100 pick. Now if that list puts them in order 1-100 that does indeed separate #1 from #100.

 

[allan_s]

I can't wait for the cicadas to come back! Best fishing of my life as well! Its hard to beat Spring and Penns using cicadas.

This was response to HookJaw. Didn't post as a reply, as I wanted it!

Also, Penns Creek gets no favors from all the Agriculture at its head waters... So maybe fishing pressure isn't only thing making fishing 'not like 20 years ago'

 

[Hook_Jaw]

Alan yes the cicada season was unreal many large trout were caught out of penns and spring. Ive never seen trout hit off the top like that in sunny 90 degree weather.

 

[tomitrout]

Also, Penns Creek gets no favors from all the Agriculture at its head waters... So maybe fishing pressure isn't only thing making fishing 'not like 20 years ago'

heh, yeah, I'm sure all that fertilizer & chemical laden chocolate milk that flows down thru there for days on end is doing the stream a world of good. :-x

thanks for link Hook, think I'm gonna pop some popcorn....

 

[Hook_Jaw]

Has been many problems with amish over fertilizing in our area many fines have been given out but they still over fertilize anyhow elk and pine creek has been hurt from it also.

 

[tomitrout]

this is a great line from the article:

Below Glen Iron the river is flat, gravelly and weedy and it is really boat water, but a man with high waders and high determination, plus a good casting arm, can do a lot in it.

And just a thought about the spot burning turn that this thread is taking (sorry can't help myself)....Spot burning has always been present, the internets is just that latest rendition of it. Penn's has had this subject article written about it (50+ years ago? and there're still trouts?!?!? omg!!), also an entire book written about it, how many other articles? How many pages of 'guide book' knowledge passed on, how many other websites besides some obscure fishing report on a fly fishing forum? (which is pretty much almost exactly the beta you'd get if you weren't too damn lazy to call the local shop and get the information yourself)....and guess what? the fishing is still good and there's a good chance it's the better for it. More awareness, more involvement, more invested interests in the stream. I wonder what the Letort and the Big Spring would be like now if Vince & Charlie hadn't 'spot burned' them in those dang books they wrote back in the day? Would there still be a hatchery churning away at the headwaters of Big Spring today? What if the pesticide accident on the Letort hadn't gotten the attention it did? What if that'd become a regularly occuring 'oopsie,' just something that happens to that old crick that runs thru town?

And those are books that also mention plenty of other quality waters, which I can pretty much go to most any time I'd like and find solitude when I'm looking for it. Maybe I'm just lucky or somehow figured something out, but to me, when I hear 'spot burning!!,' I hear selfishness. There is so much water out there, get over it, there's room for everybody.

 

[barbless]

If there's been a decline in the fishery at Penn's Creek over the last 55 years, I don't think it has anything to do with angling pressure.

I truly wish that it didn't get so high and muddy after it rains, or so warm in the summer. I wish there was less plowing, and a wider riparian corridor with tree plantings along the stream and tribs in the upper reaches. But that would require a substantial investment in soil conservation- including lessening the acreage available to cultivate- and I don't expect the farmers to put up the money to do that on their own. I don't think they could afford to do that without receiving equivalent compensation.

For all that, there's a huge population of trout in Penn's. Nice size ones. I see them all the time, most often when they spit out the hook and flee, or when I blunder across them while wading in the riffles.

Plenty of hatches, too. My impression is that overall, the creek is in pretty good shape. The thermal problem in the summertime is the worst of it. Fishing pressure is a negligible problem in comparison.

fwiw, I have to wonder whether Penn's was stocked in 1958...my guess is "yes".

 

[rrt]

DryFlyGuy-The Dan Shields/George Harvey collaboration about Harvey's fishing career mentions just what you noted in your post about the SI article.
As for spot burning: Some of us absolutely abhor spot burners and spot burning for many reasons. But, we're never going to change the minds of those who love spot burning and spot burners. For us, it is another losing battle. For those who love spot burning, it is another glorious victory over those of us who hate it.

 

[pcray1231]

First, a PFBC list of upwards of a thousand class A streams.

No, they don't. I haven't counted, but it's in the neighborhood of half that.

is not “outing” those streams it is nothing more than a listing of all class A streams in PA. Some are definitely better than others but the list doesn’t identify which ones and nobody can tell which are the better ones from the list.

All class A streams are very good. Probably top 5% of all streams, and top 10% of wild trout streams in the state.

Second, every last one that is one public property gets fished regularly? Where did you get that stat?

On a small stream, fished once a week is regular. I didn't argue that they were popular. I argued that they weren't unknown. It means hundreds of anglers know about them. They aren't secrets.

Talked about where? Not everyone talks about where they fish. Some may tell nobody, some may tell a select few they can trust and some may blab it to the world. Me finding a stream and telling a friend about it that isn’t outing that stream.

I don't know about you, but when I talk with other fishermen, I always talk about streams. And is it outing streams? Sure! I do agree with you that singling out a stream in a glorifying report for the world to see isn't in good form, and if you think I'm arguing differently, you need to re-read my post.

All I was saying is that for Class A streams the size of a Penns Creek, there's no way your going to keep it a secret. Perhaps without the glory reports it's not such the destination for out of staters and even in staters don't have to make X number of trips per year. But you can be sure that every single serious angler in the region will know of it's existence and a little about it, even if there weren't glorious reports of it in magazines and online forums. It may be less crowded, but it wouldn't be empty. It wouldn't be the secret of a small club of locals.

 

[Hook_Jaw]

Penns Creek is a terrible fishery please don't come here and waste your time fish spring creek with George Humphreys Or one of Beavers pay to fish lands lol

 

[lv2nymph]

I had never heard of "spotburning" until I found this forum. Been on here for about a year and honestly I'm still a little confused about what is and what is not spot burning. Really to me it seems like a matter of personel opinion, some think just talking about a stream is doing it, posting about it in a forum, writing an article,pfbc stream listing, and any other way of communicating about a place to fish is spot burning. So what about all the books of streams? Maps that show you exactly how to get there, hatch charts, listing of flies to use and when. Just seems like anything but absolute silence is spot burning. :-? I personally like the map books,articles, and someone telling me about a good place to fish, cause alot of those places that's the only way I'll find them. Sure you find some on your own but it's nice to get some inside info. before you go. Ya know?

 

[pcray1231]

lv2nymph,

Absolutely. My personal opinion is that we should all share 100% freely. Famous waters are famous for a reason, but they get OVERFAMOUS because of the stance that's it's ok to talk about streams everyone knows, but not ok to talk about the lesser known ones. We don't have a problem with too many anglers in this state. We have a problem with overconcentration of anglers. Stream X looks like a zoo while there's tons of other very good streams that go lightly fished.

As someone said, this is circular logic. Don't spotburn the lesser known streams. Which means all that we can talk about is the well known ones. Which means singling them out.

That said, I value friendships more than my stance on this. If I have been shown or told about a stream, I may discuss in person or via PM, but I tend to keep it hush on the public board out of respect for the person who informed me. Lately, really, I tend to shy away from giving lesser known stream names publicly, regardless of how I learned of the stream. I think that makes me just another person contributing to the problem outlined above. But it seems to be the unofficial semi-agreed upon law of the community, and I am a member of the community here. Follow the rule to prevent fights, while advocating for change.

Via PM, I'm an open book. If I don't know the person well, I will generally give dozens of options, though, rather than highlight one.

 

[Hook_Jaw]

To me if someone in the eastern half of the country has not heard about penns they must live under a rock

 

[TimRobinsin]

Hey a great tool for finding these class A streams is the pennsylvannia ultimate fishing map app that UFMGUY made. No stream is secret on there and you can get turn by turn directions right to access!