Dubbing advice, tight vs fuzzy

[6xAdams(Jones)]

Make dubbing on a dry fly as tight as possible. Unless it is symmetrical, the fuzzy body will catch air and twist the tippet in a few false casts (along with a slightly off-center parachute or uneven wings).
Fuzzy is fine for wet flies since I'm water loading for the toss and I rarely use wet flies anyway.

 

[Bamboozle]

The "importance" of Fuzzy nymph bodies begs the question, why do Perdigons work so well...? 😏

Expanding on the recommendation of tying wax; even with waxed thread I use wax ALL the time when dubbing and the coarser the material the tackier the wax.

Excluding some special waxes, my favorites for general dubbing are BT's Tacky & Super Tacky and a 40+ year old tube of Overton's that is still 3/4 full. I also bought a tube of the "new" Overton's but I like the old stuff better.

As an illustration of the value of wax, believe it or not all of my Trico Spinners in sizes 24-28 and some wire bodied midge pupa I tie in sizes size 22 - 30 are tied with an Ice Dub thorax and I'm not talking about a big bulbous thorax either...

However there ain't a chance in Hades I could pull that off with Ice Dub with just waxed thread. I need my Overton's. 😉

 

[Nocktavius]

A well tied nymph that appears “buggy” was usually tied that way using a more advanced technique like a loop rather than a sloppy dubbing job. Again, the problem is if you can’t apply it uniformly to 3 dozen bugs in sizes 12-18 then it’s not good technique. The thin “carrot” is the basis for all good ties above and below water

 

[dudemanspecial]

The "importance" of Fuzzy nymph bodies begs the question, why do Perdigons work so well...? 😏

I don't think anyone said it was important, but I will respond anyhow......

Same reason they take thread midges, or brassies. Or corn kernals on a hook. Or powerbait.

Same reason humans eat doughnuts, potato chips, french fries or sausage gravy.

They have very low intelligence and they are hungry.

 

[Kms]

I greatly appreciate all of the feedback. I have dubbing wax but hadn’t yet bothered to use it, but given how not tight my noodles are, I’m going to start.

I also have harder tying wax, which I found (for me at least) to be a requirement for using GSP thread, because that stuff is slippery.

 

[Tigereye]

Perdigons also get to the strike zone quicker and stay in it longer. It's just another compromise. Sacrificing bugginess for obtaining depth quicker

 

[Bamboozle]

I also have harder tying wax, which I found (for me at least) to be a requirement for using GSP thread, because that stuff is slippery.

Why GSP?

Folks can use what they want, but the only time I use gel spun is for jobs where I REALLY have to crank down the wraps tight; for example, tying in dumbbell eyes on Clousers or with certain kinds of hair. Even then I only use the GSP for that task before tying it off and using regular waxed thread to finish the fly.

If it is because you like the extra strength and smaller diameter, for a lot of reasons you would be better off working on reducing the number of wraps to tie in materials and reducing the tension of your wraps with regular fly tying thread versus using GSP to compensate.

FWIW, I would probably use 8/0 or 70 denier thread for the flies you tied with GSP.

In addition, you'll save some money on thread, you won't need wax except for dubbing, regular thread is easier on bobbins & scissors and IF you WANT to, can snap off regular thread tags instead of cutting them.

 

[Kms]

Why GSP?

Folks can use what they want, but the only time I use gel spun is for jobs where I REALLY have to crank down the wraps tight; for example, tying in dumbbell eyes on Clousers or with certain kinds of hair. Even then I only use the GSP for that task before tying it off and using regular waxed thread to finish the fly.

If it is because you like the extra strength and smaller diameter, for a lot of reasons you would be better off working on reducing the number of wraps to tie in materials and reducing the tension of your wraps with regular fly tying thread versus using GSP to compensate.

FWIW, I would probably use 8/0 or 70 denier thread for the flies you tied with GSP.

In addition, you'll save some money on thread, you won't need wax except for dubbing, regular thread is easier on bobbins & scissors and IF you WANT to, can snap off regular thread tags instead of cutting them.

All valid comments, I thank you for them.

I agree that I should learn to modulate tension better, and hopefully will over time, but I tried a few spools of both uni and utc thread and found that I just kept snapping them, especially the thinner gauges. It was driving me nuts and so I just gave up on them (for now, at least, maybe I’ll try them again at some point).

So I bought black and chartreuse spools of Veevus gsp - expensive - and found that even with the slipperiness I liked them much better. So then I bought a bunch of more reasonably priced colored gsp thread on sale from fishon that seems at least as strong as the Veevus.

My loon tool-kit semi-serrated scissors cut gsp cleanly, but so too do my old $4 Rapala serrated braid cutters, though with less precision of course. As the Rapala cutters were never dulled by snipping all of my braided spinning line, I doubt superfine gsp will ever dull them either, and so I use them for all less precise cuts.

I picked up a pair of rite ceramic bobbins on clearance and they’re very nice, and also a pair of aventik ceramic bobbins off the ‘bay for $11 that work nearly as well: The tension adjustment isn’t as precise or smooth, but a tiny bit of grease on the disks cured most of the roughness, and a dremel on the detents will cure the precision if I decide it’s worth the bother. All tolled, even mucking around with more thread and thread related tools than I need, the investment hasn’t really been all that much.

Now I just need more practice. My six-week beginner class with Mainline fly tiers starts Wednesday. 👍

I’m definitely still a beginner, and so my product mentions should be taken with tablespoons of salt, but here are links to the fishon gsp thread, rapala cutters, and aventik bobbins for anyone interested:

Fishon Ultimate Tying Silk
Rapala RSD-1 Line Scissors
Aventik 2PCS-Ceramic Fly Tying Bobbin

 

[Bamboozle]

Kms:

A couple of things...

Don't get hung up on using the thinnest possible thread size just because companies are now peddling threads described as 14/0 & 16/0. Decades ago, the lightest thread most fly tiers used was 6/0 or 79 denier.

It was only in the last 15 or so years I embraced anything lighter/thinner. I STILL use my lifetime stash of Gudebrod thread for almost all of my tying. However, I reserve the 8/0 & 10/0 for the stuff smaller than a size 16 and I use 3/0 exclusively on foam patterns because it doesn't cut the foam as bad as thinner threads.

It takes practice & confidence but bulk control is all about learning it is not necessary to use 6-10 wraps of thread to tie in materials. Waxed thread also grips better which helps cut down on wraps & excessive tension.

Another thing you can do is to practice BREAKING regular tying thread on a bare hook to get used to how much force it takes to snap it off. Many times when I am tying really small stuff with 10/0 Gudebrod after a long hiatus, I'll tie in my thread and snap it off a few times to get used to the amount of pressure I can apply on the lighter thread. I also ALWAYS snap off the tie-in tag of my lighter threads just to get a feel for how much pressure they can stand.

Practice also pays dividends when trying a new technique or using a new material. I still practice things I haven't done in a while a few times on a bare hook to get used to it before committing to tying my first fly. As a result, all my flies look better from the first tied instead of having the first few look crappy until I get the hang of things.

Finally, you would probably notice a few stray fibers of GSP but when using any thread, make sure you don't inadvertently nick it with the hook point. Speaking GSP, I also use Rite bobbins for my GSP. and like them a lot, just don't drop them on a hard surface. 😉

Have fun with the Mainline Fly Tyers. I don't know any of them personally but I know of them, their history and their reputation as a first class outfit!!

You should learn a lot and have a lot of fun in the process.

 

[Kms]

Kms:

A couple of things...

Don't get hung up on using the thinnest possible thread size just because companies are now peddling threads described as 14/0 & 16/0. Decades ago, the lightest thread most fly tiers used was 6/0 or 79 denier.

It was only in the last 15 or so years I embraced anything lighter/thinner. I STILL use my lifetime stash of Gudebrod thread for almost all of my tying. However, I reserve the 8/0 & 10/0 for the stuff smaller than a size 16 and I use 3/0 exclusively on foam patterns because it doesn't cut the foam as bad as thinner threads.

It takes practice & confidence but bulk control is all about learning it is not necessary to use 6-10 wraps of thread to tie in materials. Waxed thread also grips better which helps cut down on wraps & excessive tension.

Another thing you can do is to practice BREAKING regular tying thread on a bare hook to get used to how much force it takes to snap it off. Many times when I am tying really small stuff with 10/0 Gudebrod after a long hiatus, I'll tie in my thread and snap it off a few times to get used to the amount of pressure I can apply on the lighter thread. I also ALWAYS snap off the tie-in tag of my lighter threads just to get a feel for how much pressure they can stand.

Practice also pays dividends when trying a new technique or using a new material. I still practice things I haven't done in a while a few times on a bare hook to get used to it before committing to tying my first fly. As a result, all my flies look better from the first tied instead of having the first few look crappy until I get the hang of things.

Finally, you would probably notice a few stray fibers of GSP but when using any thread, make sure you don't inadvertently nick it with the hook point. Speaking GSP, I also use Rite bobbins for my GSP. and like them a lot, just don't drop them on a hard surface. 😉

Have fun with the Mainline Fly Tyers. I don't know any of them personally but I know of them, their history and their reputation as a first class outfit!!

You should learn a lot and have a lot of fun in the process.

Practicing a technique on a bare hook makes a lot sense. Thx!

 

[Bamboozle]

Practicing a technique on a bare hook makes a lot sense. Thx!

You can also figure out your proportions on a bare hook BEFORE committing to building a body, etc..

Another thing I do in the proportion arena is to keep a couple of 3 x 5 cards and a pen and fine tipped marker in my tying desk.

When I am tying multiples of a certain size fly and want a specific wing size, wing case size, tail or even a non-standard hackle length; I mark the edge of the 3 X 5 card with that length and the hook size and I use the card as a gauge for the rest of the flies I tie in that size. I do the same for more flies of the same type but of a different size on a different side of the same 3 x 5 card.

After that I'll write the name of the fly and keep it in my desk for future reference along with cards for other patterns. If I later decide my proportions need modification, it's a simple matter to make a correction or "another mark" along with a note why or whole new card.

I always marvel at the consistency achieved by professional fly tiers or tiers more talented than me which is MANY. 😉 However I do three things that has improved my constancy so I end up with no clunkers:

Practice stuff that is new to me or I haven't done in a while.​

​

I never tie less than a dozen of any size fly of any pattern. You can tie less if you wish but try and avoid tying one of this and one of that, especially if you are switching between fly types or patterns.​

​

I make and use my 3 x 5 cards and a couple of different hackle gauge so my proportions are the same.​

It's helped me a lot and maybe can help you as well.

Have fun!!

 

[Kms]

All valid comments, I thank you for them.

I agree that I should learn to modulate tension better, and hopefully will over time, but I tried a few spools of both uni and utc thread and found that I just kept snapping them, especially the thinner gauges. It was driving me nuts and so I just gave up on them (for now, at least, maybe I’ll try them again at some point).

So I bought black and chartreuse spools of Veevus gsp - expensive - and found that even with the slipperiness I liked them much better. So then I bought a bunch of more reasonably priced colored gsp thread on sale from fishon that seems at least as strong as the Veevus.

My loon tool-kit semi-serrated scissors cut gsp cleanly, but so too do my old $4 Rapala serrated braid cutters, though with less precision of course. As the Rapala cutters were never dulled by snipping all of my braided spinning line, I doubt superfine gsp will ever dull them either, and so I use them for all less precise cuts.

I picked up a pair of rite ceramic bobbins on clearance and they’re very nice, and also a pair of aventik ceramic bobbins off the ‘bay for $11 that work nearly as well: The tension adjustment isn’t as precise or smooth, but a tiny bit of grease on the disks cured most of the roughness, and a dremel on the detents will cure the precision if I decide it’s worth the bother. All tolled, even mucking around with more thread and thread related tools than I need, the investment hasn’t really been all that much.

Now I just need more practice. My six-week beginner class with Mainline fly tiers starts Wednesday. 👍

I’m definitely still a beginner, and so my product mentions should be taken with tablespoons of salt, but here are links to the fishon gsp thread, rapala cutters, and aventik bobbins for anyone interested:

Fishon Ultimate Tying Silk
Rapala RSD-1 Line Scissors
Aventik 2PCS-Ceramic Fly Tying Bobbin

Wanted to followup just in case anyone is considering buying fishon thread: don’t. The thread is strong, but otherwise terrible, as the colors will rub off on your fingers leaving you with white thread. In short, it’s garbage. The much cheaper Lion brand Chinese GSP on Aliexpress is far, far superior.

 

[poopdeck]

Perdigons also get to the strike zone quicker and stay in it longer. It's just another compromise. Sacrificing bugginess for obtaining depth quicker

The true secret to catching more fish than your partner. If you’re not catching fish it’s because you’re not fishing deep enough. A smooth, buggy or ill proportioned fly doesn’t matter as long as it’s as deep as the fish.

 

[nfrechet]

Fly tying - A Complete Dubbing Techniques Tutorial.pdf

drive.google.com

 

[Kms]

Fly tying - A Complete Dubbing Techniques Tutorial.pdf

drive.google.com

I have a copy, but thanks for sharing a link to this excellent guide