What happened to Save our Susky
- Thread starter Fredrick
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C_kreek17
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Fairly certain thats an old picture
Satellite image shows sediment pollution flowing into Chesapeake Bay | Chesapeake Bay Program
Plumes of sediment were observed flowing down the Susquehanna River into the Bay this week after heavy rains.
www.chesapeakebay.net
pcray1231
Well-known member
I was on the Susquehanna on Sunday in Harrisburg and it was crystal clear, could see bottom at 10 feet of depth. And yesterday a small area just south of Harrisburg recorded over 4" of rain and had some flooding issues, while Carlisle got like a quarter inch, and down towards Codorus got not a drop.
I am not claiming the Susquehanna doesn't have major issues, including siltation. Just saying a snapshot like that, a moment in time, is not a fair way to look at things. Those variables you talk about do indeed make a huge difference and I am quite sure you could show the opposite, if you get it when central PA got no rain and the Potomac or Delaware drainages got hammered, for instance. Summer thunderstorms are extremely spotty, but can put it down hard and fast and make clear water into chocolate milk real quick like.
I am not claiming the Susquehanna doesn't have major issues, including siltation. Just saying a snapshot like that, a moment in time, is not a fair way to look at things. Those variables you talk about do indeed make a huge difference and I am quite sure you could show the opposite, if you get it when central PA got no rain and the Potomac or Delaware drainages got hammered, for instance. Summer thunderstorms are extremely spotty, but can put it down hard and fast and make clear water into chocolate milk real quick like.
That's from Tropical Storm Lee.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tropical_Storm_Lee_(2011)
Check out the descriptions for both NY and PA.
The upper Susque areas in NY, around Binghamton, got hit very hard.
The article says the river hit a record high at Wilkes-Barre, even higher than during Agnes.
The Loyalsock Creek gauge set a record significantly higher than during Agnes.
After the flood, I saw where landslides had occurred on tributaries to Loyalsock Creek and Mehoopany Creek. I've gone out exploring after big floods before, but never saw landslides like that before, or since.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tropical_Storm_Lee_(2011)
Check out the descriptions for both NY and PA.
The upper Susque areas in NY, around Binghamton, got hit very hard.
The article says the river hit a record high at Wilkes-Barre, even higher than during Agnes.
The Loyalsock Creek gauge set a record significantly higher than during Agnes.
After the flood, I saw where landslides had occurred on tributaries to Loyalsock Creek and Mehoopany Creek. I've gone out exploring after big floods before, but never saw landslides like that before, or since.
bigjohn358
Well-known member
Just because the water is clear doesn't mean its clean. I just fished Selinsgrove this past weekend. I was so disappointed. Its a far cry from what it was 15 years or so ago. I'm just glad I got to experience it while the fishing was still great.
pcray1231
Well-known member
Oh, I'm aware of that.
Point was, Fred's post was Monday, and the post he shared was 1 day old. Implying the pic was taken Sunday. And the issue shown is turbidity/siltation. I was on the river on Sunday and it was very low and crystal clear with very little turbidity. i.e. the pic was not taken on Sunday.
I was not in any way claiming there are no issues with the river....
Point was, Fred's post was Monday, and the post he shared was 1 day old. Implying the pic was taken Sunday. And the issue shown is turbidity/siltation. I was on the river on Sunday and it was very low and crystal clear with very little turbidity. i.e. the pic was not taken on Sunday.
I was not in any way claiming there are no issues with the river....
The PFBC hasn't published a smallmouth electrofishing survey YOY or adult (plenty of catfish surveys, though) on the lower Susky since 2013 and one adult survey published for the middle section back in 2018. Given the well publicized issues concerning the declining smallmouth populations in the past two decades, I just shake my head and since have given up wondering why that is.....
Give John Arway, the former head of the PFBC ("Fishtales" on this site ) credit for keeping the plight of the Susky top of mind to the public. IMO, the PFBC has taken a "look the other way" policy.
Whether the surveys are encouraging or dismal, they should be still published since our license dollars are spent to conduct the survey, plus keeping all citizens informed about the state of the River is the right thing to do. My hope is a good YOY and/or adult survey may actually pop up and an up-to-date survey may suddenly appear. One can only hope...
bigjohn358
Well-known member
Eh survey or no survey I can tell ya things aren't good. I just don't understand how or why they don't do anything about it. I mean it was a world class fishery in the late 90s and early 2000s. I remember when Shaw Grisby did a tv show at the mini Statue of Liberty. To have something as incredible as it was and then practically disappear is just heart breaking to me.
pcray1231
Well-known member
That's where I was Sunday. It wasn't a fishing centric trip (sightseeing with my significant other) and I wasn't pounding it hard, but I did have a spinning rod with me and fished some. Tried a crayfish imitation and a Ned's rig stickbait in some good looking habitat. I caught NADA. Zero. Not a bite. Going over deeper areas, it was clear enough I shoulda seen fish as I floated over, even at 7 or 8 feet (and most of it was much shallower than that). I didn't see any adult fish. Not bass, suckers, carp, nothing. I see bass like crazy when I float the Swattie or Skuke.
That said, I did see plenty of YOY bass. Especially in all the little channels, they'd be in groups of 4 or 5, I probably saw hundreds overall and wasn't looking for them. All around 3" or so. Also saw a bunch of the little stonecats or madtoms or whatever they are, tons of crayfish, and a hogsucker or two. All little stuff.
That said, I did see plenty of YOY bass. Especially in all the little channels, they'd be in groups of 4 or 5, I probably saw hundreds overall and wasn't looking for them. All around 3" or so. Also saw a bunch of the little stonecats or madtoms or whatever they are, tons of crayfish, and a hogsucker or two. All little stuff.
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I wade fished above the statue after work twice now. Conditions were perfect. 2 fish in 90 minutes, 10"-12" each. Not good at all. Few years ago, I would expect 20-40 fish in 90 minutes before sunset and quite a few in the 17"-20" range. The section from Clemson down through Harrisburg has been very spotty and slow. The 25 miles above hasn't been anything to get excited about either. Imagine that another disappointing summer on the Susky
Schaefer406
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Susky has been super dissappointing lately South of Harrisburg. I caught a beautiful smallie right near Wrightsville (18" or so), but since then and multiple trips, I have caught squat other than 2 like 9" smallies. The river is not "doomed", but I truly think these water quality degradation issues need to be a heightened priority for the DEP and the Bay Commission; however, shortages in funding, shortages in employees, etc. are causing it to not be as effective as efforts could be. I really want to help out with this, so I will be seeking volunteer opportunities.
Fish Sticks
Well-known member
Smallmouth face many different challenges in the susky. Its a river full of non native or invasive species so very prone to large scale instability of fish populations(BOOM and BUST).
It is of course also a catchment for endocrine disrupting Ag chemicals, silt laden with heavy metals, AMD, and fecal material. But what gets less to zero attention is the fish assemblage is F.U.B.A.R and continually changing due to introductions. Any long term stability of fishable populations will likely be hard to achieve, despite future water quality improvements, if the invasive species additions don’t stop.
This may sound pretty ridiculous to some. If the water is cleaned Up the river will obviously benefit and become more productive but what i am speaking to is the stability of fish populations. We have seen these Boom and Bust cycles with invasive species despite absolutely pristine water. Perfect example flathead lake in idaho imvasive lake trout crashing Bulls, Cutts, Kokanees shortly before occupying entire lake and then stunting out at tiny size.
It is of course also a catchment for endocrine disrupting Ag chemicals, silt laden with heavy metals, AMD, and fecal material. But what gets less to zero attention is the fish assemblage is F.U.B.A.R and continually changing due to introductions. Any long term stability of fishable populations will likely be hard to achieve, despite future water quality improvements, if the invasive species additions don’t stop.
This may sound pretty ridiculous to some. If the water is cleaned Up the river will obviously benefit and become more productive but what i am speaking to is the stability of fish populations. We have seen these Boom and Bust cycles with invasive species despite absolutely pristine water. Perfect example flathead lake in idaho imvasive lake trout crashing Bulls, Cutts, Kokanees shortly before occupying entire lake and then stunting out at tiny size.
Fish Sticks
Well-known member
And many many more
tomgamber
Well-known member
Runoff and fertilizer too. Maybe more.
But none of these invasive fish has caused the problems identified so far. Those problems, first seen in 2005, preceded these invasives and some big ones that are not going to be corrected are water temps in the shallows, which have a big impact on the appearance of diseases in YOY SMB, parasites, and LMB virus in SMB. Flatheads were found in the early 2000’s, but they were largely limited to the tail-race of Safe Harbor Dam at that time and took a few yrs to make their way upstream.
Briefly paralleling the Susquehanna YOY, in one of the hottest late springs or early summers for each river we saw some of the same disease problems at one site out of four in the lower, non-tidal Delaware R sites, most likely the warmest site on the Delaware due to a major trib, and two or three sites on the Schuylkill. I don’t recall if the Schuylkill site infections were during the same year or an occurrence at one site one year and then another occurrence at the other sites another year. Anyway, it was very infrequent, associated with unusually warm period of weather, and unlike the Susquehanna the fish never showed these problems at a substantial portion of the sampling sites.
I would add just as an aside that the invasives snakehead situation has changed dramatically this year on the Schuylkill. Suddenly larger specimens are possibly as much as 40-70 miles from where they apparently were previously seen, meaning they appeared in Reading, near Cross Keys, and reportedly (unconfirmed) even farther upstream. The surprise has been that they have been larger fish, not the sizes that had been seen locally in Lake Ontelaunee and Bernharts Dams.
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Fish Sticks
Well-known member
Was 2005 the first year non natives were put in the susky?
Was 2005 the first year non natives were put in the susky? Channel cats, smalies,walleye, rock bass, musky banded darter, green side darter, carp the list goes on. Those are just the new kids on the block. How can an ecosystem stabilize its self how can niches be developed. The additions never stop.
silverfox
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The completely unnatural species composition in that system has to be a variable though. I don't see how you can look at the population density or health of any one species and not consider the incredibly unnatural food web as a potential issue. Even as the environmental conditions change, that has to cause shifts in biomass at all the trophic levels. So everything is constantly trying to find balance either due to changing environmental conditions or changing species abundance.
pcray1231
Well-known member
That ecosystems balance out and become stable and harmonious is a myth. Well before humans walked the earth, native animals had massive boom bust patterns in response to floods, disease, harsh winters, droughts, mast crop cycles, insect cycles, etc. If one species had a disaster it resulted in effects on predators and prey as well.
Oaks only drop acorns every 2 years, or 7 for some varieties. Cicadas come every 17 years. Why? Because these events are an absolute boom for animals that eat them. The resulting year class of their predators is huge. Which makes next years acorns/cicadas LESS likely to make it. That's how they evolved that way and the evolutionary strategy thus becomes to miss the population booms of your predator and hit the busts. Animals with shorter life spans and higher number of young are generally more affected by temporary stuff. The strategy is to be able to handle, as a species, a population crash and repoulate quickly. Whereas longer lived animals with less young take the approach of trying to endure hard times by being more mobile, have a more varied diet, or whatever.
Part of natures "plan" involves major population swings.
Likewise the classic fox/hare type population models have very little basis in reality. Because it may be a real variable but there are lots of variables. They both have other sources of food, they both have other predators, they're both affected by disease and droughts and floods and harsher than normal winters.
Oaks only drop acorns every 2 years, or 7 for some varieties. Cicadas come every 17 years. Why? Because these events are an absolute boom for animals that eat them. The resulting year class of their predators is huge. Which makes next years acorns/cicadas LESS likely to make it. That's how they evolved that way and the evolutionary strategy thus becomes to miss the population booms of your predator and hit the busts. Animals with shorter life spans and higher number of young are generally more affected by temporary stuff. The strategy is to be able to handle, as a species, a population crash and repoulate quickly. Whereas longer lived animals with less young take the approach of trying to endure hard times by being more mobile, have a more varied diet, or whatever.
Part of natures "plan" involves major population swings.
Likewise the classic fox/hare type population models have very little basis in reality. Because it may be a real variable but there are lots of variables. They both have other sources of food, they both have other predators, they're both affected by disease and droughts and floods and harsher than normal winters.
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