Upper Tully - habitat work?

[Mike]

jdaddy said: Today I and three other board members spent half the day on an upper area of the Tully, above Blue Marsh Lake. This is nice COLD limestone water (temp was 67.8 today at Noon) with huge potential. We had federal agencies, surveyors, etc on this stretch as we attempt to put together a grant proposal that would have a value approaching $250,000 with in kind matching. This wonderful section of the stream has been posted against fishing for years. The owner has expressed interest in potentially opening this water to fly fishing only with cooperation from PFBC and anglers.

Mike responds: Is the opening of the property, if it occurs, contingent upon habitat improvement work being completed there? What is the minimum amount of time that the property would be open (expressed in years)? Where did the idea of tackle restrictions originate in the discussions? Would this stretch require stocking of some sort, or does it support a good wild trout population?

 

[Maurice]

Mike responds: Would this stretch require stocking of some sort, or does it support a good wild trout population?

Yer kidding right?

 

[Mike]

Not kidding Maurice. The stretch involved was not specified and there are a lot of miles between Blue Marsh and the Tully headwaters. The Chapter in the past has done projects on other parts of the Tully above Blue Marsh...not in what is well-known as being the wild trout stretch, if I recall correctly.

 

[franklin]

Question Mike, In general how aware are you of stream restoration projects undertaken by groups like TU? As a member of Bucks TU I often assumed biologists at the PFBC knew what was happening on moderate to larger sized projects. If you're not generally aware how important is it to communicate such projects with the PFBC?

 

[Mike]

I see the plans or permits for most, if not all, PFBC coordinated stream habitat improvement projects in my region. I usually do a quick review of their scope and how many of each device is being installed. I check to see if the stream is one that I recommended for habitat work. I don't dwell on the plans since we have specialists who are coordinating the efforts. On the other hand, I go over lake habitat plans with a "fine toothed comb" since they are usually much greater in scope and have multiple purposes.

 

[jdaddy]

I assume you edited your first post as I don't see your question regarding supporting wild trout. I have caught wild browns above and below this project, so I assume this water would hold wild trout as well. Trout were seen in the area and stocking is quite a bit further upstream. Cold, clean, fertile water. I assume it would hold wild trout well. BCCD and NRCS were on site at the meeting and survey, citing that they spotted trout, however I am not sure how great their identification skills are. The water had been walked by BCCD and NRCS so fish were likely spooked if present. There were some bruiser carp in there though!

The discussion with the property owner was held with me and a couple other board members. It was a feeler and the first time this idea was floated. The property owner advised that he would let us fish it. Instead of considering it a personal victory and keeping it as my "private" spot, I continued the conversation with the owner trying to broaden the opportunity to include others. His big complaint, as often is the case, was litter which two of his cows ingested and subsequently dies of. This, along with the people camping out with full fledged camp fires on opening day lead to the posting of the property. There is a long way to go on this subject matter, however it is simply an attempt to broaden fishing opportunities for responsible fisherman. My point in posting the information was to let folks, who openly complain about TU in general and TCTU specifically and the lack of activity, know that we are very actively pursuing many new projects and trying to get new opportunities for the community. There is a good number of new members and fresh blood in the organization that have open minds and good work ethic.

 

[Mike]

Well, your description of the site location has me even more interested than if it had been in the "famous" Lebanon County headwaters stretch. Thanks for the explantion and keep up the good work.

As for the complaints about TCTU activities re: habitat work, I can't imagine that those who have complained are fully aware of the Chapter's projects and those in which they have helped other project sponsors over the years. Ignoring those in the DH Area, I can generate at least a partial list off the top of my head that I think were spearheaded by Tulpehocken TU or to which Tully TU was a major contributor....Sacony Ck ( multi-year project), Nolde, three(?) projects on other parts of the Tully, Wyomissing Ck, Beaver Rn, Laurel Rn, Angelica Ck(?). Have I missed any?

 

[jayL]

I recall their presence at a big restoration at Hay Ck years and years ago (10-15). Of course, their work was promptly undone by the sportsman's club.

 

[jdaddy]

You are right Mike. I made a point that TCTU has absolutely no information published online, in print, etc on the Nolde project this year. People just assume nothing is going on. Unfortunately a lot of folks could care less about any work except DHAFLO section of the Tully. We have a couple of ideas for that stretch including maintenance to the deflectors (one of the biggest TU projects ever undertaken by any chapter) and a thing or two around Cacoosing confluence.
Personally I would like to get some people together to clean up a lot of Cacoosing. It has become a trash dump.

 

[DaveD]

jdaddy wrote:
You are right Mike. I made a point that TCTU has absolutely no information published online, in print, etc on the Nolde project this year.

It was in the PATU newsletter at least once and a pic was published somewhere, Reading Eagle maybe.

 

[jdaddy]

It was in the PATU newsletter at least once and a pic was published somewhere, Reading Eagle maybe.

Yes, as a result of the board meeting where I brought this up. One of the biggest things we are working on is visibility and communication.
Additional activities in this area I hope to address is publishing a time line of projects online and also create an archive of newsletters, paper clippings, photos, project records such as plans, etc.

 

[DaveD]

Where was the pic published? I know I saw it somewhere.

 

[jdaddy]

I know it was in the Reading Eagle.

 

[Chaz]

The problem I have with what Tully Chapter does is they like to "design" the projects themselves. Not a good idea.

 

[jdaddy]

The problem I have with what Tully Chapter does is they like to "design" the projects themselves. Not a good idea.

You are painting with a very broad brush and generally could not be more wrong. Does this chapter include experts in conservation? Yes. Have they come up with new, innovative stream feature that have been adopted by PFBC and TU national? Yes. But don't worry at least three sets of independent eyes get to look at and approve every project.

 

[Chaz]

Well, I suppose it depends on what you call experts?

 

[steveo]

Chaz,
Why do you have a problem with TCTU designing the projects that we do? Who better to design the projects than the guys that know the streams and have years of experience under their belt. Like J said everything gets reviewed and approved before a single rock is rolled.

 

[Chaz]

Most of the rock rolling doesn't work well or it fails after the first big flood. IT's not just Tully TU, it's all the rock rolling stuff. Far more projects have to be repaired after a few years than go without some kind of failure.
I know of a project that failed during a flood very soon after it was completed. The project was designed by someone who was an "expert."
It's hardly an exact science, and the experts that have been trained to do it don't always get them right.
It's probably not fair to single out a fine TU Chapter like Tully, but these projects fail quite often, as I said it's not just TU projects that fail. There is a big project on Elk Run in Tioga Cty that hasn't done what it was supposed to do and I would consider that a failed project based on that. It was designed by an expert.

 

[SBecker]

Chaz-----So what your saying is no stream projects should be done? I think it is better to try then not.

 

[LehighRegular]

Chaz-----So what your saying is no stream projects should be done? I think it is better to try then not.

NO... I think what Chaz is saying is to make sure that someone of considerable knowledge and expertise should prepare the plans. Many things need to be considered, calculations should be performed and assessments prepared prior to installation of stream improvement devices.

Just throwing rock in a stream willy nilly will have little affect or improvement on habitat.