Tulpehocken DH water temps: at what temp do you quit fishing?

[Mike]

So often individuals have mentioned this year and other years that they fish the Tully DH area until the water is too warm on a given outing. At what water temp do you Tully anglers consider it to be too warm? I ask specifically of Tully anglers because there is the possibility to manipulate water temps there.

 

[lestrout]

70 degrees F. Mike - thanks for the attention you are devoting to us.

 

[Heritage-Angler]

A better question would be "Why do you ask?"

This should be a "resource first" situation, and you (the PFBC) already know what's best for the resource (trout).

This sounds to me like you're trying to pander to the users (fishermen), rather than just going ahead and manipulating the release temps to give the trout the best and longest shot at survival until the Fall temps make it safe to fish for trout on the Tully.

Resource first > "utilization first", IMO.

 

[OldLefty]

I would not normally respond to something about a stream I don't fish; however, I believe this goes beyond just the Tully. I do this because it goes beyond a mere personal interest in what some/many anglers use as a gage to determine when to/not to fish for trout. I'll admit I'm a bit suspicious of motive here.

The ideal here would be to manage for the trout and their survival as a result of having been stressed from battle: that is, from being played, handled and released.

I believe that there is data available from past studies as to a temperature at which the trout are at high risk of mortality from this type of stress. I had more than one opportunity to talk with Dr. Bob Behnke who was considered one of the world's foremost authorities on salmonids. He told me that he believed that anglers could not harm a trout by playing and handling them(with care)with water temps. at around 55 degrees F. He also said that, when water temps. rise to 65 degrees F. anglers risk killing trout no matter how careful they are in playing and handling them. Obviously, the risk increases progressively as water temps. rise above 65 degrees F.

I can only hope that the PFBC hasn't thrown out the motto "Resource First." I also hope that we haven't shifted back to the "resource" being defined as anglers. Knowing John Arway, I don't believe he'd support that.

If there's a legitimate way to manipulate flows on any tailwater to ensure an environment in which the trout have a higher potential for survival during periods when they would normally be stressed without said manipulation, it should not be dependent upon angler perspective.

 

[rrt]

1. Does Mike work for the PFBC?

2. The studies I read in the past cautioned anglers not to fish for trout in water 70 degrees or warmer if they wanted the trout they released to survive. I think it was due to the decreasing amount of dissolved oxygen that was available. I was not aware that Dr. Behnke believed that 65 degrees began to risk trout.

 

[Fishidiot]

Not a Tully regular but I draw the line at about 70 degrees.

 

[Oregon_Owl]

Stressful temps vary depending of type of trout. Browns I believe can do well up to 70-72, rainbows a little lower (68-70), and brookies I think start to stress at 68.

I'd have to check these numbers if I were to apply science to the situation. Staying under the stress number range makes the most sense to me.

Personally, I used 70 as the cut off when I fished the Tully, with the condition that stream temps were not going to rise above 70 later that day.

I thought that the Tully TU chapter worked with the Army Corps and there was no way to lower temps any further, but maybe that is not accurate. The info I heard was that the pool behind the dam was not deep enough to hold significant amounts of cold water.

 

[Chaz]

Rich,
Mike is the PFBC Fisheries Biologist for SE PA.

 

[Chaz]

I don't fish the Tully often, but once was there and found the temperature of the creek was 74. This surprised me because it was late September. I fished but was below a cold water tributary. When I didn't catch anything in the Tully I went up the Tributary.
That was 15 to 20 years ago. Since then it's 68 degrees, but for brookies it's 64 degrees. That's because they simply stop feeding at about that temperature anyway.
If there is an opportunity to "manage" the temperatures in the Tully I suppose that's good news, unless it's a once and done thing. I think the PFBC should manage tail water fisheries as tail water fisheries, but I also realize that in most cases the ACE owns the dams. In the case of the Tully we are at the mercy of ACE.
In the case of all ACE owned dams they should be managed for both flood control and ALL recreation.

 

[LetortAngler]

For Bows and Browns, stress levels start becoming apparent around 68, so 68-69 is usually max where I feel comfortable for C&R.

 

[McSneek]

I don't pay that much attention to water temps because once air temps are consistently 80+ I really have no desire to fish for trout. I would say though that if cooler water temps meant the fish could survive until fall that would be great.

Why do I think this question is really trying to generate responses that will justify keeping the DHALO regs on the Tully?

 

[dshaffer]

As Mike knows, the Army Corps of Emgineers and the Delaware River Basin Commission "regulate" the flows. The dam has three outlets at three different levels of the dam. In the offices of the ACOE there is a plaque that states their mission is to keep the outflow temperature no higher than 68 degrees. In practice there is jot what happens, but over the past almost 40 years the ACOE has tried to do a good job.

I will not get into a discussion about who owns what part of the water and who has control....really.....because the ACOE and the DRBC both have their own say in that matter.

Hats off the Mike if he can navigate that!

 

[salvelinusfontinalis]

Never. I utilize all fish even in stressful water.

 

[troutbert]

What flow regime changes are being considered?

And what are the implications of this? Tradeoffs?

If releasing more cold water is being considered for this time of year, wouldn't that mean less cold water available for later in the summer?

 

[Mike]

The question had nothing to do with regulations and everything to do with lost angling days or hours. When anglers quit before they had originally planned, but do so because of rising water temps, angler hours are lost. When the lake runs out of cold water in late July or the first few days of August, angler hours are lost. It was news to me that some anglers are quitting fishing in the Tully in the middle of a fishing trip due to rising water temps hitting their personal threshold even though fish might still be rising or capable of being caught. I am curious as to what the anglers' threshold temps are and how close they are to the 68 deg F objective.

Note: There is no magical cold water to be released into the tailrace. All things being equal, any reduction, even 1 degree F, in the tailrace temperature objective would more quickly use up the cold water resources in Blue Marsh Lake. The present tail-race temperature objective (at the gauge) is stressful at 68 degrees F, but it extends the fishery for as long as possible during the summer.

Note: As a general comment, slightly off topic, angler hours have "value." They are currency in certain circumstances. Likewise angler trips. An interest in angler hours and angler trips, including trip lengths, can very well be related to resource first and protection of fisheries.

 

[geebee]

Mine is 68F. has been for years - but as already said, if the air temp is over 75F i dont enjoy trout fishing and don't go.

so this spring has been a disaster for me - just 3 days up on the WB Delaware and 2 trips to BGF in MD.