Trophy Trout Regs

[laszlo]

Can anyone explain the reasoning behind the two 14 inch plus trout per day between opening day and labor Day limit? Other than the obvious. The reason I ask is because I fish a local tailwater stream that has this regulation. It is not stocked being a wild brown fishery but I have a problem with the removal of these larger reproducers.

 

[Swattie87]

I’m not sure exactly what the PFBC’s reasoning was, other than to be able to call these streams “Trophy Trout” streams from an advertising perspective.

From a logical perspective, and for a moment assuming no additional pressure that the label “Trophy Trout” may or may not create, but assuming all being equal:

1. It’s clearly better than the standard reg of 5 per day, greater than 7” in length. Less total fish being removed, and in most places it’s hard to consistently catch (as in on a daily basis) numbers of fish greater than 14”. Fish between the lengths of 7” to 13” are more common in most streams and make up a large portion of angler’s catches. They now must be returned to the stream.

2. The open season ends Labor Day, enabling surviving larger spawning specimens a better chance to make it to the spawn.

3. Any angler who has it in mind to keep a fish or two is going to keep a 14” or larger Trout…this at least limits their catch to two per day.

4. Larger fish are exponentially more difficult to catch in most cases than smaller fish. I wager than a 14” range fish gets caught much less frequently than a 7” fish, on average. In that sense, I don’t think a reg such as TT necessarily results in all of the 14”+ fish being fished out. Those same catch and keep anglers, when not catching 14”+ fish will keep 7-13”ers that they now must release.

Other than the name, it’s really not all that bad of a reg IMO, compared to most other options. C&R being ideal of course. IF TT was adopted as the standard reg across the state, that'd be a big win IMO.

 

[Bamboozle]

The name of the Special Regulation Section should be "Whining Trout Fisherman Fishing" versus Trophy Trout because in most of the sections it is on, there previously was regular harvest and tackle restrictions in place, The Saucon, Monocasy & Cedar Run come immediately to mind.

IMHO the creation of Trophy Trout was an appeasement to those anglers who whined when they eliminated bait fishing & harvest on those sections.

 

[Chaz]

You don't have to remove the fish, you can put them back. I was always puzzled by the regulation especially the 14 inch part that isn't even a trophy brook trout.

 

[Dave_W]

The 14" limit seems arbitrary but this has been around a for awhile. Some of the FFO streams used to have a one 20" fish per day limit back in the 70s and early 80s.

Anyway, I think the 14" "trophy" notion comes from the size of a second year stocked fish. In other words, rather than harvest typical first year stockies in the 10" range, if fish were allowed to hold over a year, either in a stream (or much more likely) in the hatchery, they would then be in the 14" range, or slightly larger, and suitable for harvest.

 

[RLeep2]

Originally (and this goes back a ways..) in order for a stream to be a candidate for the TT regs/program, 5% or more of the surveyed biomass had to consist of fish 14" or larger. Or maybe it was 5% or more of the adult fish found had to be 14" or greater. I forget. I don't know if this is still the standing criteria or not.

So far as any negative effect from these regs on wild trout populations when the potential for harvest is factored in, I have never seen a study that suggested or heard a biologist say that any such impact exists. This isn't to say that there is not or could not be an impact of this type. But I tend to think that if there is such an effect, it is minimal to the point that it would not be noticed by anglers.

 

[Maurice]

Lazlo, prior to the TT regs yer crik was under the Selective Harvest regs. Think it was 12" for browns and 9" for brooks. When the consolidation of regs occurred in 2005ish the most appropriate reg was the TT umbrella based on the exceptional biomass at he time and with the consideration that harvest was a psrt of the previous regs. I recall Mike stating that few fish reach 14" in that crik. Maybe he will confirm or straighten me out. It was his call.

 

[Bamboozle]

Dave_W wrote:
The 14" limit seems arbitrary but this has been around a for awhile. Some of the FFO streams used to have a one 20" fish per day limit back in the 70s and early 80s.

The 1970’s early 1980’s Fly Fishing Only regs were 6 fish per day, 9” or better except during the extended season when it was 3 fish per day.

There was no 20” requirement in the standard FFO sections.

At that time there was also the Limestone Springs Wild Trout Fly Fishing Only Regulation encompassing the Letort, Big Springs and Green Springs with zero harvest.

 

[RLeep2]

The old Fish For Fun Program from the 70's had a 20", 1 fish creel.

In a few of the waters under this program, that meant a wild fish and in others it usually meant a brood fish.

 

[laszlo]

Maurice, you are right about the number of 14 inch fish, of all the years I fished there I've only caught one fish over 14 inches. It was a 16 inch RAINBOW that must have wandered down from the stocked area 1/2 mile upstream. I've caught many browns from 2-10 inch.

 

[ryansheehan]

The regs on the savage river in md are trophy designated. 2 fish per day, browns must be over 18, brooks over 12 and rainbows no size restrictions(most bows are stockers from the north branch or come over the savage river dam in high water events). No bait is allowed and a portion is fly fish only. In all my years I have never seen anyone keep a brown or a brook. Occasionally you see bows taken, myself included, although I would rather fish than clean fish. The regs in PA often make me scratch my head but there are some fantastic streams so they must be doing something right. I really don't understand the all tackle catch and release.

 

[Dave_W]

Bamboozle wrote:

Dave_W wrote:
At that time there was also the Limestone Springs Wild Trout Fly Fishing Only Regulation encompassing the Letort, Big Springs and Green Springs with zero harvest.

These special reg sections, before they changed to "Limestone Springs Wild Trout Water," they were managed under "Fish for Fun" and allowed a 20" fish. These are essentially the current FFO sections today on Letort and Falling Springs. The change to complete C&R occurred around 1984 if my memory serves me correctly.

You are, of course, correct that the earlier standard FFO regulation allowed harvest of three 9" trout.

 

[Bamboozle]

I'll check my Summary Booklets for clarification when I get a chance.

I have them going back to 1973.

 

[Dave_W]

Bamboozle wrote:
I'll check my Summary Booklets for clarification when I get a chance.

I have them going back to 1973.

Breeches was under this regulation as well until it was switched to C&R artificial lures in about 1982.

Big Spring was a special case. In 1972 it went to FFO with two 15" fish per day rather than Fish for Fun in hopes that larger browns and bows would be harvested, while the 15" would protect brookies. This reg was in place until more recent years, when it went to total C&R in the FFO.

 

[Hook_Jaw]

Penns has a miscellaneous special regulation lol a PFBC special made up regulation after not being able to pass catch and release.

 

[Bamboozle]

I did a little research in my old Summary Booklets if anyone is interested. I only noted changes from 1973 and only went as far as 1987 when the Trophy Trout designation first appeared.

I included regulation changes but not additions or subtractions to the list of streams in these special reg areas:

1973 - Fly Fishing Only – 5:00 am to 9:00 pm – Minimum Size 9” – (6) per day except during Extended Season

1973 - Fish for Fun – Same as FFO except no harvest with the exclusion of (1) “trophy” EXCEPT at Fisherman’s Paradise where NO fish may be harvested. Also NO wading except at Yellow Breeches.

1973 - Modified Fish for Fun (Spinning Tackle & lures permitted & wading permitted)

1974 - FFO Hours changed to 6:00 am to 10:00pm

1976 – Split shot & weighted flies clarified as OK in FFO waters.

1977 – FFO hours go to sunrise to sunset.
Big Springs placed in special Big Springs Trophy Trout designation with (2) trout over 15” per day
Fish for Fun Artificials Only Created

1982 – Catch & Release designation created for fly-fishing but harvest still permitted on regular FFO sections. Harvest on regular FFO goes from (6) per day to (3) with NO harvest in Extended Season

1984 – Delayed Harvest FFO & Artificials Only appears. Catch & Release FFO becomes No Harvest FFO
Limestone Springs Designation appears with NO harvest except the (2) 15” fish per day on Big Springs.

1987 – Trophy Trout designation appears

 

[Mike]

Maurice is correct about the reason why the stream section went from Selective Harvest to Trophy Trout regs. Selective Harvest was a better reg for this particular special reg area in that it was a reg that more closely fit the characteristics of the wild brown population there, but regulation consolidation by the Commission in an effort to simplify the reg book led to the Codorus being included in the next closest reg, which was Trophy Trout.

Within the special reg area fourteen inch and larger fish are a pretty rare occurrence. Like many, if not most, Pa wild brown streams, size groups with an abundance of fish top out at about 10-12 inches. In this case the abundance of smaller fish, especially seven to ten inches is often exceptionally high due to frequent large year classes, which is reflected in their less than ideal condition(plumpness). Go outside of the special reg area in stretches where habitat and forage are better and trout density lower and you will find much larger fish.

 

[laszlo]

In the area of Codurus that I fish, I've only caught trout, ever. When you hook a tiny fish and expect to pull out a chub it's a two inch brownie. Mike, have your samples there reflect this. Was there yesterday, caught five between 4 & 9 inches.

 

[Mike]

Also some blacknose dace, creek chubs, white suckers, and some sculpins in places close to where they were originally stocked.

 

[Chutney]

Being that you all seem to know this stream very well and that it only produces 9-12" fish I would try somewhere else ! Or maybe get involved with the local TU chapter and just maybe you'll learn something !