Tipping a Guide

[steve98]

Hello all,

What in all your opinion is proper amount for tipping a guide?
Should it be like tipping at a restaurant 20% of the price?
Or something else?

Thank you,
Steve 98

 

[Bruno]

Yes.

 

[PennKev]

steve98 wrote:
Hello all,

What in all your opinion is proper amount for tipping a guide?
Should it be like tipping at a restaurant 20% of the price?
Or something else?

Thank you,
Steve 98

20% is a good starting point but depends on the price of the trip. In my own experience I usually just budget $50 per day and add more if the guide deserves more.

Note: This is based on full day float trips @ $250 per man.

 

[GonnaFlyNow]

I am in the PennKev camp at starting at 20% and going higher as needed. Also, keep within your own budget as needed. I have had good experiences with guides. All have put me on fish which is hard to do sometimes. Also, most seem like they are starting out in their career and others are hustling several jobs throughout the year. My last guide squeezed me in on a trip to the Savage River area the weekend he was leaving for the Steelhead run in Buffalo. Most guides seem like they are hustling all the time. I don't mind helping out.

Cheers,

 

[maxima12]

Tipping is based on success. Not on what you get, on what you received. Face it some guides don't have what it takes to make an enjoyable event.

it is all in the whole event. no fish, no game, but will come back. 10%

drag along partner--3%

lifetime of pleasure, treated well, delivered as promised 20%.

If the owner dinner & drinks.

Prices always reflect a surcharge of non tips.

I have been with guide's and produced product that worked and guide used it and i did not get zilch. thet's another story.

 

[zenriver]

Tips are my primary income source: caddie, bartender, and bird hunting guide so here’s my take. Always tip to the level of service and be aware of what the base rate is and go from there. If I helped a golfer save a few strokes off his round, gave spot-on reads, and fixed a swing flaw I know what should happen: at least $100 a bag tip.

Where I guide for pheasant, chukar and Huns the pay is laughably
low, so after pleasantries and the requisite Safety Speech I delicately let the sports know what my rate is. Usually they “get it” and afterwards the appropriate Franklin or Grant is handed to me.

The only problem I run into is when we get yearly repeat groups that are simply....cheap, as in no tipping cheap. Guess what? I will do the minimum required. Not as much conversation, no help with bad shooting, work the dogs downwind, etc. I run pretty good setters so the sports are always going to have a good time no matter what.

Guides work hard and the hours are long. I’d also say there are differences between sole proprietors and guides who work out of a
shop. How much does the shop get out of that $400 daily rate?
I don’t know. Just communicate with your guide and remember the golden rule....don’t be douche!

 

[Dave_W]

steve98 wrote:
Hello all,

What in all your opinion is proper amount for tipping a guide?
Should it be like tipping at a restaurant 20% of the price?
Or something else?

Thank you,
Steve 98

Yes.
For a great guide who really put in the effort (don't forget their costs for food and drinks - a good streamside meal is often among the best parts of the trip) you certainly can and should go higher in my opinion.

 

[PennKev]

maxima12 wrote:
Tipping is based on success. Not on what you get, on what you received. Face it some guides don't have what it takes to make an enjoyable event.

it is all in the whole event. no fish, no game, but will come back. 10%

I don't understand this jibberish. You sound like you acknowledge that a good guide does more than get you into fish, but then you advocate only a %10 tip if you don't catch fish, but want to book another trip?

No.

If you enjoy your day and your guide works hard, you should tip the standard 20%. Even the best guide can not guarantee any level of success. Slow days are just as long and frustrating for the guide as they are for you. If anything, how many fish you catch should be the last consideration when tipping. Instead, was the guide knowledgeable? Hard working? Friendly? Good sense of humor? Patient? Determined? Those are all much better reasons to tip.

 

[krayfish2]

I have a couple of questions.......

Should tip be based on success? Fair enough but what if the water is abnormally high / off color.....what if you (the client) book a trip during one of the worst times of the season to be successful or what if the client can not accept instruction to help them be more successful? All of those are out of the guides control. If they work hard trying to get you on fish but conditions, stubbornness or lack of ability keep you from catching fish, the guide should not be tipped or receive a smaller tip.....right?

Comparing fly fishing to golf, every golfer knows the guy who golfs 3 times a week, has been playing for 30 years, owns high end gear and tells you that they are a 6 handicap. You get them on the course to witness 5 hours of topped shots, crazy slices and several 4 putts from three feet. Based on their talk, you expect to see Tiger Woods. Seen the same in fly fishing. I've seen guys that couldn't hit an Olympic size swimming pool from 20'.

One time, I witnessed a guide talking a client through nymphing a riffle. Watched the guide explain the process 20 times. The guide had the angler bring in the line so they could have the person's full attention. More instruction and back to casting. After 30 minutes, the guide says "you just aren't able to get the drift right". Client hands the rod to the guide and says 'show me what you mean'. Guide casts, fly drifted 5', hookset and handed the rod to the client. Client lands the fish and tells the guide 'that was pure luck, do it again'. Very next cast, guide hooks up again, laughed and handed the rod to the client again. After landing the fish, client says 'ok, you know your sh*t and guess I should listen to you if I want to catch fish'

I could see tip based on how hard the guide works for you, how enjoyable they make the day or if they were able to teach you something to make you a better angler. Remember that your guide is up tying flies for your trip when I they should probably be sleeping. If you meet them at 9am, it likely that the guide was up preparing / traveling at 6:30am and it will be 11pm before they clean / store the gear and turn in for the night. Many of them work hard and long hours to make your experience the best it can be and we should remember that when tipping.

PS. In all fairness, I've seen guides with a million mile stare while the client is wildly whipping the line around hooking everything but a fish. That guide has basically mailed it in and would get a poor tip from me.

 

[maxima12]

let me clear this up a little. generally I do not use guides. but when I do it is with 3-4 people. I like private guides who are not attached to fly shops. say he charges 300.00 to take the gang fishing. 4 of us. we don't catch fish, just not biting. 10% =$120.00 from the four. I would say knock it down to $100.00. one person $30.00. all you guys out there, rich.

now we had an outstanding trip 20% on 4 at 300 =$240.00. I do not know of any guide that would call this jibberish. one man $60.00.


let's take this one step further. if your guiding and have to rely on tips to support your guiding. well, maybe your in the wrong line of work. everyone's a guide of some sense.

 

[PennKev]

maxima12 wrote:
let me clear this up a little. generally I do not use guides. but when I do it is with 3-4 people. I like private guides who are not attached to fly shops. say he charges 300.00 to take the gang fishing. 4 of us. we don't catch fish, just not biting. 10% =$120.00 from the four. I would say knock it down to $100.00. one person $30.00. all you guys out there, rich.

now we had an outstanding trip 20% on 4 at 300 =$240.00. I do not know of any guide that would call this jibberish. one man $60.00.


let's take this one step further. if your guiding and have to rely on tips to support your guiding. well, maybe your in the wrong line of work. everyone's a guide of some sense.

So now you are advocating a 40% tip as a starting point? Because that's what 4 guys tipping 10% is. But hey, if you find a guide dumb enough to take 4 clients out at once for only $300 I certainly think he deserves a big tip.

 

[wbranch]

I've only used a freshwater guide four times in sixty years so don't have a lot of experience with tipping. But I think if the guide owns the boat/business and the day fee is $400 and a 20% tip is considered correct then the math works out to $60 an hour and that is only if you have a full 8 hours on the river. $60 an hour is a pretty nice wage to row a boat, shoot the breeze, and change some flies for 8 hours. I wouldn't be surprised if some days start as soon as you step into the boat.

If the guide doesn't own the boat/business he is only going to earn a percentage of the day fee. In that instance if he is a good guide, meaning friendly, helpful, generous with flies, etc. then I think a 20% tip is fair.

 

[maxima12]

YEAH, 60 BUCKS A HOUR WHEN YOU MAKE 20. COME ON BOYS DO YOU WANT TO GET THIS RIGHT.

use some common sense. generally guided trips are provided at a convienience to the angler who has no idea of what to do.

i am sure you boys have an idea?

this is a great subject!

I have always been against guide service. WHY? Make loot for what you paid for in license fees.

The system is a stray. Make loot for what is yours, you paid for it.

guides generally take advantage of what is yours.


I would like to see a guide who has a guide license, provided by state.

I am a guide, I have no license, I know all the spots. a lifetime of on the streams. I am happy to help. at no charge. I will go along and I will pay my own way.

that's why Maxima12 has a lot of fishing buddies.

 

[PennKev]

Ok here....

PA Licensed Fishing Guides


60 bucks an hour? OK....

Take out:
The cost of gas.
The cost of lunches/snacks/drinks.
The cost of replacing worn/damaged gear.
The cost of flies that your clients lose.
The outfitters cut of the guide fees.

Take into account:
The rained out days.
The last minute cancellations.
The unbooked days.
The winter months.

Gudies aren't getting rich, and even a very good guide is going to struggle to get by here in the east on guiding revenue alone. Bad guides wash out pretty quick or don't get much business and need to rely almost entirely on real jobs. Even in the best trout locales, only the better guides really make it, and even then it's a hard life. Ever work 12 hour days for a 120+ day stretch with only a handful of days off? I know plenty of guides that have. That's what it takes to make a living off guiding and, if you can't hack it as a guide, you don't get booked that many days. And if you don't work that many days, you ain't going to make it on guiding.

And before anyone thinks that 120 days at $450+ is a mint.... ....it's not. At that rate it's only $54K a year before expenses, taxes, and healthcare. Also, that is assuming you work independently. If not, take the outfitters share of revenue too. Good luck paying all the household bills and saving anything. Maybe if you are lucky you get a gig as a salt water guide in the winter, do it all over again, and can start to get ahead financially. And again, this is assuming you are a good guide, booking as many days as possible.

I get what your deal is maxima and this post isn't really for you. This is for the people that actually will understand and may have not taken into consideration these things before.

 

[wbranch]

Maxima12 wrote;

I would like to see a guide who has a guide license, provided by state.

Anyone who professes to be a guide on the upper Delaware (EB, WB, and main stem), and who charges a fee, must be licensed by the state of PA. I'm pretty sure they must also have liability insurance because the main stem Delaware is a Federally controlled river.

He further wrote;

I am a guide, I have no license

You won't be "guiding' on the main stem Delaware. Guiding without a license and you will be fined and possibly have your boat confiscated. Actually if I'm not mistaken no one can claim to be a guide, and charge for services in PA, without first obtaining a guides license.

 

[wbranch]

Pennkev wrote;

The cost of gas.

The cost of lunches/snacks/drinks.
The cost of replacing worn/damaged gear.
The cost of flies that your clients lose.
The outfitters cut of the guide fees.

Typically drift boat guides either row or have an electric motor. Worn and damaged gear is cost of doing business and a tax write-off. The cost of flies, while real, is nominal. Most guides get guide discounts and buy productive flies in bulk and often will tell a client $1.00 (or make up a number) for each fly lost. My comment addressed both independents and guys who work for an outfitter. If they work for an outfitter I think a 20% tip should be a given if the guide met your expectations (expectations should be discussed at the ramp before the boat is pushed off into the river) Some clients expectations are just unrealistic. "I want to catch a dozen 18" trout on a dry fly". Well that probably isn't going to happen. But if the guide puts the client on rising fish, rows his *** off to hold the boat in place, makes suggestions on how and where to cast, and overall is just fun guy to spend the day with then that should meet the criteria for meeting expectations.

Lastly some guides I know have a couple guides working for them and have made fly fishing their careers. But they don't just guide. They do other things fishing related to compensate for income shortfalls when they aren't guiding. Guys who guide on their own and complain about clients, crowded conditions, guys like me with their own boats, and not enough fish should seriously consider another line of work because no one is twisting their arm to guide.

 

[krayfish2]

If this helps put things in perspective, this is my estimate for last year......

New boat 10k +
$1500+ for 'loaner gear'
$550 insurance
$100 licensing plus CPR and boater safety

That's my outlay before the first trip. Average day was leaving the house at 7-7:30am and not getting home until 10:30-11. Gas, shuttle and lunches we're also paid out.

Last year's weather was a blowout most of the season which meant 90% cancellation rate. You're hard pressed to get rich doing it unless you run 5-7 trips a week from April 15 to Oct 15. I'm doing it because I enjoy helping others learn how to fly fish, identify insects, read water and enjoy the sport like I do. Making some money in the process is simply a side benefit.

wbranch,
I considered getting licensed for the Delaware but I'd have to have enough people interested to make it worthwhile. I'd need to get NY license to do Upper WB, all of EB and National Park permit to do the Main. An additional$500+ in expenses plus burning a vacation day at work to drive to Cortland to take NY licensing test. Can't justify it at this point.

 

[wbranch]

Andy,

So where are you guiding? On the Susky for smallmouth?

 

[PennKev]

wbranch wrote:
Typically drift boat guides either row or have an electric motor. Worn and damaged gear is cost of doing business and a tax write-off.

Tax write offs are all well and good but the money is gone one way or another.

The cost of flies, while real, is nominal. Most guides get guide discounts and buy productive flies in bulk and often will tell a client $1.00 (or make up a number) for each fly lost.

As much as I will advocate for guides, I would never even hire a guide that charges for flies. It's part of the business. Switching to a dry fly when fish start rising shouldn't be an up-charge. I know of guides that don't even like when other guides do this. They feel it creates a bad dynamic between guide and angler and, you guessed it, they feel hurts their tips at the end of the day. With that said, don't underestimate how much guides spend on flies. They are getting a break, but depending on their employment status with the shop it can still add up pretty quick.

My comment addressed both independents and guys who work for an outfitter. If they work for an outfitter I think a 20% tip should be a given if the guide met your expectations (expectations should be discussed at the ramp before the boat is pushed off into the river) Some clients expectations are just unrealistic. "I want to catch a dozen 18" trout on a dry fly". Well that probably isn't going to happen. But if the guide puts the client on rising fish, rows his *** off to hold the boat in place, makes suggestions on how and where to cast, and overall is just fun guy to spend the day with then that should meet the criteria for meeting expectations.

I agree. Right on.

Lastly some guides I know have a couple guides working for them and have made fly fishing their careers. But they don't just guide. They do other things fishing related to compensate for income shortfalls when they aren't guiding.

If you can generate enough business to book trips for 3 or 4 guides including yourself, you are way ahead of the game. It's pretty common to see younger guys comment online about how they want to go out west and live the "guide" lifestyle and all that BS, few realize that it's not the guides who get to live that way. It is the outfitters who employ any number of guides. If you can do a full schedule of guided trips yourself and take your cut from the 3 or more other guys under you, well that isn't bad at all.

Guys who guide on their own and complain about clients, crowded conditions, guys like me with their own boats, and not enough fish should seriously consider another line of work because no one is twisting their arm to guide.

True.

 

[hendeylathe]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5m0QbVTWhtw