The Last Cast

[theoriginalnickyp]

A little film made by my BIL for Montana TU about how climate change is affecting their fishery and what it mean to people who's livelihood depends on clean cold water.
https://vimeo.com/398660358

 

[Prospector]

Nicely done. They did stop short of suggesting what actions would really make an impact. As I contemplate what would truly make an impact, I think we would have to live the lives of people in the 1880s. Ban cars, planes, electricity. Ride horses and live in one room cabins. Not a bad life, just one that is very different. Although I’m not really sure how long our military could hold out if they are all riding horses.

It’s really going to take some difficult decisions. I don’t think minor lifestyle changes will reverse the current course.

 

[PennKev]

As far as trout are concerned, Montana needs to shift away from an economy in which hay production plays a sigificant role. Any climate change problems are greatly exacerbated by irrigation withdrawals. Imagine 2/3 of Penns or LJR being diverted into farm fields. Thst is what happens in MT on many river systems. There is almost no waterway in MT in which water is not diverted for hay.

 

[wildtrout2]

PennKev wrote:
As far as trout are concerned, Montana needs to shift away from an economy in which hay production plays a sigificant role. Any climate change problems are greatly exacerbated by irrigation withdrawals. Imagine 2/3 of Penns or LJR being diverted into farm fields. Thst is what happens in MT on many river systems. There is almost no waterway in MT in which water is not diverted for hay.

That's interesting. I never realized there was such an issue in Montana.

 

[GeneBeam]

As far as trout are concerned, Montana needs to shift away from an economy in which hay production plays a sigificant role. Any climate change problems are greatly exacerbated by irrigation withdrawals. Imagine 2/3 of Penns or LJR being diverted into farm fields. Thst is what happens in MT on many river systems. There is almost no waterway in MT in which water is not diverted for hay.

I think it is a little presumptuous of someone in Pennsylvania telling native Montanans that they should give up their livelihood so you can fish for trout. I have to guess that you know nothing about the water right laws in the state of Montana. If you buy property in Montana, you make sure that you get all of the timber rights and at least 50% of the water & mineral rights. Water & mineral rights are about 60% to 75% of the cost of land in MT. How do I know? I once own 20 acres on the south side of the Yellowstone river outside of Columbus, MT.

By the way wheat is the leading cash crop, and most is grown in the north-central part of the state so any water they use is after it leaves the mountains.

You might want to read up on water rights in Montana i.e. “prior appropriation”, “first in time, first in right”, “senior users” & “beneficial use”.

If you want those farmers & ranchers to give up their water rights, then put your money up and buy their water rights. I don’t think you would want someone to take your land from you and in Montana water rights are worth big money.

 

[theoriginalnickyp]

Water rights seems like a very thorny issue, not just in MT. My main take away from the video is that there is a problem, and efforts to solve it need not be politicized.

 

[1fish]

GeneBeam wrote:

As far as trout are concerned, Montana needs to shift away from an economy in which hay production plays a sigificant role. Any climate change problems are greatly exacerbated by irrigation withdrawals. Imagine 2/3 of Penns or LJR being diverted into farm fields. Thst is what happens in MT on many river systems. There is almost no waterway in MT in which water is not diverted for hay.

I think it is a little presumptuous of someone in Pennsylvania telling native Montanans that they should give up their livelihood so you can fish for trout. I have to guess that you know nothing about the water right laws in the state of Montana. If you buy property in Montana, you make sure that you get all of the timber rights and at least 50% of the water & mineral rights. Water & mineral rights are about 60% to 75% of the cost of land in MT. How do I know? I once own 20 acres on the south side of the Yellowstone river outside of Columbus, MT.

By the way wheat is the leading cash crop, and most is grown in the north-central part of the state so any water they use is after it leaves the mountains.

You might want to read up on water rights in Montana i.e. “prior appropriation”, “first in time, first in right”, “senior users” & “beneficial use”.

If you want those farmers & ranchers to give up their water rights, then put your money up and buy their water rights. I don’t think you would want someone to take your land from you and in Montana water rights are worth big money.

I was thinking the same thing when I first read his post, but if you reread the post, he does state "as far trout are concerned", not as what Montana landowners, ranchers, or citizens needs are concerned.

 

[wbranch]

PennKev wrote;

Montana needs to shift away from an economy in which hay production plays a sigificant role.

Easy for you to say when you aren't ranching for a living. What do you think the beef you had in that steak or burger are eating, corn? Maybe in the feed lots in Chicago but in Montana they are eating hay. I have fished Montana for fifty years and I would never suggest a rancher changes his way of life so I can catch a trout. The rancher were probably there long before the first brown trout ever swam in any of the Montana rivers.

 

[GeneBeam]

When I talked about Montana water rights, I did mentioned ‘beneficial use’ but I forgot about that ‘the State of Montana owns all the water in the state—the owners of water rights possess only the right to use some of that water’ but there is also a part of the law about ‘Use it Or Lose it’. So, if a person who has ‘senior users’ rights and they do not use their water for a ‘beneficial use’ they could lose their water right without compensation. So, the law almost demands that they use their water rights.

Could law be changed so ‘senior users’ rights could be assigned some of their water rights, in some years, to keep rivers as a certain level and water temperature? Yes, but if you lived in Montana, like I did in the early to mid-1980s you would know that water rights are a very contentious subject.

You want to read about a very contentious water rights subject, read about Owens Valley and corruption in the Los Angeles Department of Water and Power.

 

[GeneBeam]

If you want to talk about crazy water right laws, take Colorado. It is illegal to collect rainwater in a rain barrel. If fact it is written into the state’s Constitution, you don’t own the rain that falls on your property, unless you own the water rights. It might not be that way today, but in 2015 it was.

From the website https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/govbeat/wp/2015/03/24/it-is-actually-illegal-in-colorado-to-collect-the-rain-that-falls-on-your-home/
it states, “The rain barrel is the bong of the Colorado garden,” local columnist Dave Philipps wrote in 2007. “It’s legal to sell one. It’s legal to own one. It’s just not legal to use it for its intended purpose.”
It is an interesting article on the web site.

 

[PennKev]

GeneBeam wrote:

I think it is a little presumptuous of someone in Pennsylvania telling native Montanans that they should give up their livelihood so you can fish for trout.

I think it's a little presumptuous to assume that I am literally suggesting that people give up their livelihoods.


Speaking of livelihoods, tourism is a huge industry for many western states and should also be considered when it comes to water usage.

By the way wheat is the leading cash crop, and most is grown in the north-central part of the state so any water they use is after it leaves the mountains.

Did you fish SW MT when you where there? Hay is a major crop in the smaller river valleys where many of the best and most famous rivers are located and water is diverted in stretches where it directly impacts trout. Virtually all of the major and minor river systems in SW MT have significant withdraws. The Jefferson River system has a ton of water removed for irrigation. That is a drainage that includes the Beaverhead and Big Hole, names that should be on every anglers radar.

Whats worse is that some of the water that is pumped into fields finds its' way back into the rivers only at a much warmer temperature. So you now have greatly reduced flows with an influx of warm water.

If you want those farmers & ranchers to give up their water rights, then put your money up and buy their water rights. I don’t think you would want someone to take your land from you and in Montana water rights are worth big money.

See my other comments about assuming I was literally calling for an end to any farming.

 

[1fish]

There's a reservoir on the West Fork of the Bitterroot that was built primarily to catch and store snow melt for irrigation purposes in the Bitterroot Valley. Notice that Montana FWP now has a 60 percent share of the water under contract. The water coming out of the reservoir is in the low 40's even during the end of July.


http://dnrc.mt.gov/divisions/water/projects/painted-rocks-reservoir