The great leader controversy

lonekimono

lonekimono

Member
Joined
Oct 4, 2012
Messages
58
Hello everyone. I am looking for some input on leaders? I feel like I am doing something wrong or my leader setup is wrong. I have tried bought taper leaders. I have also made my own. I currently use a strike indicator. That I would like to get away from lately I have been either missing a lot of strikes and fish have been getting off pretty quickly. Or I am getting skunked. I hope this makes sense. my current leader setup is. 25lb mono 21/2 feet. Then 11lb sight piece about a foot. Then 7lb florocarbin 6 feet. To 5lb florocarbin about 18 inches to fly. Thanks for any suggestions.
 
I’m using 17lb, 14lb, 10lb, 6lb .... each about 2 ft after knots. I forget what their diameters are. Currently I’m using clear Trilene XL but I’ve had good success with Clear Stren too. I know that doesn’t sound very sophisticated but it works for me.
 
Thanks. I will try that and see how it works for me.
 
lonekimono wrote:
Hello everyone. I am looking for some input on leaders? I feel like I am doing something wrong or my leader setup is wrong. I have tried bought taper leaders. I have also made my own. I currently use a strike indicator. That I would like to get away from lately I have been either missing a lot of strikes and fish have been getting off pretty quickly. Or I am getting skunked. I hope this makes sense. my current leader setup is. 25lb mono 21/2 feet. Then 11lb sight piece about a foot. Then 7lb florocarbin 6 feet. To 5lb florocarbin about 18 inches to fly. Thanks for any suggestions.

I recommend you master nymphing with an indicator first. Trying to jump into tight-line nymphing will not solve your problems catching fish. In fact it's likely to complicate things having to experiment with tying and trying different rigs, with sighters and droppers and fishing different weights of flies to fish at the proper level.

Try using a simple 9' store-bought tapered leader and add 24-30" of tippet to your leader. Set your indicator to about 1.5 - 2 times the depth of the water and use lightly weighted flies or small splitshot, with just enough weight to sink your flies.

Work on casting accurately and learn to mend your line to in order to get your indicator to drift without drag. This will also help you with your dry fly fishing since the same type of rod manipulation and mending is required for a good drag-free drift when dry fly fishing.

You may want to consider fishing a dry dropper in shallower water. The easiest way to rig up is to simply tie 12-24" of tippet to the bend of a buoyant dry fly and tie on a lightly weight nymph on the end of your tippet. You can cover the surface as well as down in the water column with two flies.

Again, the key to the whole thing is learning to get a good drift. I have no doubt, if you learn to get a good drift with your indicator or dry fly you will begin to catch fish.

Good luck.
 
Thanks for the great advice! Will try it out.
 
lonekimono wrote:
I currently use a strike indicator. That I would like to get away from lately I have been either missing a lot of strikes and fish have been getting off pretty quickly. Or I am getting skunked. I hope this makes sense. my current leader setup is. 25lb mono 21/2 feet. Then 11lb sight piece about a foot. Then 7lb florocarbin 6 feet. To 5lb florocarbin about 18 inches to fly. Thanks for any suggestions.

I'm going to be blunt. That 1' of 11lb sighter ain't doing a dang thing for you at that location. Its not helping on an indicator rig, and it's too high for a tight line set up.

Do some searches on the forum for indicators and nymphing. There have been plenty of very thorough discussions about the topic. The keys are learning where to place your indicator on the leader, and adding weight, all to match the water you are fishing. Also, there is a need to be flexible and willing to make adjustments every time you move to a new stretch of water, or really anytime the depth and current speed you are fishing in changes.
 
Thanks for your input. I am definitely open to change and trying different things or ways. I will search the forms as you suggested.
 
Why make it so difficult. Furled leader with any length tippet you like.
 
I'm no leader expert but I don't think a leader is causing a skunking or fish getting off. I do think leaders are way over complicated when they need not be. If your not worried about turning a fly over then a straight piece of mono would work just fine.

your leader seems to defy the commonly accepted practice of 60-20-20. In my head yours seems to be 20-60-20, unless I'm missing something. Your butt section is to short, the drop from 25 to 11 to 7 lb test is to extreme and your taper is way to long and untapering. If this is some new fangled euro nymphing leader then it's over complicated.
 
i would watch how and when you connect flouro and mono. That flouro tends to cut right through the mono with regular pressure. I try to stock to one or the other.
 
Does anyone have a nymphing leader formula I could try?
 
Nymphing is hard. By a mile the hardest method of the basic FFing techniques to learn and master IMO. You don’t have the obvious visual feedback of when you’re doing it wrong like you do with dry flies, and you can’t be sloppy in your methods and still be successful like you can with streamers. (I've caught fish on streamers while eating a granola bar with my line just dangling downstream of me in the current and my rod under my armpit.)

Admittedly, I don’t nymph much, and I’m not very good at it. Like you, I’m trying to commit to working on it and getting better though. Anyway, I agree that you’re probably making things too complicated…For the most part, it’s not the leader. Learn a basic, proven, and reliable leader setup, and focus your attention and time on technique with that same consistent set up. Once you start to improve and learn what catches fish technique wise, then begin to experiment and dial in your leader set up toward what might work best for you…You’ll start to figure that out on the way as you see what specific techniques are successful for you. Improving your technique will catch you 95% of the fish…Improving your leader set up will catch you that last 5% of the difficult ones…If that makes sense.

In support of what others have posted so far, I think there’s two basic set ups to consider, with some pros and cons to each:

1. Store bought tapered leaders, longer probably being better than shorter when it comes to nymphing. Attach your first nymph to the tippet end, and attach your second nymph to the hook bend of the first nymph, with tippet one size lighter than the tippet end of the leader you bought. When the tippet end of the leader begins to shorten, add some additional tippet of equal size like you would when building your own leaders. Do this until the tapered leader begins to get too far up into the butt section to where you’d have to tie in multiple sizes of tippet to continue the taper. Throw the leader away, repeat.

2. Store bought furled leaders. (This is what I would do.) The pros will tell you it’s probably not as effective as a tapered leader for nymphing, and they’re probably right, but they’re easier to use and they last a lot longer without having to change them out. More expensive, but not by much, and they easily pay for themselves when compared to having to replace tapered leaders as you cut them back and use them. These are usually shorter out of the box, so attach an appropriate amount of tippet for the depth of water you are fishing to the end of the furled leader. Attach your first nymph to this. Attach your second nymph to the bend of the hook of the first with tippet one size smaller. (Going down one tippet size for the bottom nymph helps with only losing one fly when you get snagged sometimes.)

^Neither of these setups are perfect nymphing set ups. But they’re relatively easy to use and consistently repeat, and you don’t have to worry about the leader being the wrong taper being the issue. You can attach indicators and shot as needed with both of these. Experiment with that and focus on your technique. Worry about building the perfect leader for you later once you figure the basics out.
 
Agree with alot of what has been said. I am by no means an expert and am really just learning the EN method myself. Sometimes I just get frustrated and go back to indicator fishing. It is much easier to fish and I am more successful with it also.

As for leaders, I buy cheap 7 1/2' 3x tapered leaders at Wall Mart. Tie on about 9" 4x to point of the tapered leader. Tie a fly onto the 4x. Tie an additional 9" piece of 4x to the bend of the 1st fly and attach a second fly. (much like Swatties example above) You now have a 9 ft leader. Perfect for a 9 foot rod.

Lastly I attach 2 small sinkers above the knot where 3x and 4x are joined and an indicator about 1 1/2 to 2 times water depth above the sinkers. When fishing if I am getting hung up too much remove one shot. If I am not ticking bottom occasionally I add a sinker. I use the indicator for fine tuning as it just slides up and down without much hassle (I dont use/like thingamaboobers YMMV)


This set up is easy to build, cast, and fish on a 9 foot rod. It is a rig that is commonly used out west on larger rivers and is described in Dave Hughes book "NYMPHING".

Three pointers that may help are:

1) keep your flies in the 14-18 sizes. 16 being the work horse. I realize that certain waters may be different but the predominant sizes of bugs in most streams are not size 8 behemoths.

2)I find that unweighted flies are best with this method. Since the sinkers are taking your flies to the bottom, there is really no need. In fact, it may be detrimental in 2 ways. The weighted flies do not have as much movement as unweighted, and secondly the weighted fly may too close to the bottom. As most trout feed from eye level up and they are staged about 6" or so from the bottom, you dont want your flies dragging underneath him. This is especially true for your bottom fly in this rig (opposite EN Style)


3) when fishing an indicator keep as much line off the water as possible. I like to keep the line from my rod to the indicator off the water and leaving a little "J" where it connects to the indicator.

Good Luck

 
First of all I would like to say thanks for taking the time to respond and the great advice everyone has given me so far. I will definitely try some of these out. Thanks again everyone
 
7 1/2 ft 3x tapered leader. attach depending on water depth a 5x piece 30 or so inches long. When attaching 5x allow 6 to 8 inches extra for a dropper using the 3x as the dropper part on the 7 1/2 footer.

I call it a tandem leader, some call it hopper dropper.

I like using a large Wulff style on drop or any size 10 or 12 is good.

Add your nymph etc. to the point {tip}



Build you own:

36 inches .020

24 inches .017

8 inches .015

8 inches .012

8 inches .010 16 inches .008 3x used for the dropper connected to the varied length of 5x. your drop will form at the junction of 3x and 5x. Simple, effective. when dry fly action takes place, simple, cut drop and a instant dry leader appears. Make lot's, you will be happy you did

Maxima12



 
Thanks for the advice and the leader formula.
 
Keep it simple!

I’d suggest getting a 9 foot 4x tapered leader and a pack of small tippet rings. Tie on a tippet ring to the end of your tapered leader, and then add tippet of your choice (4x-6x) to the tippet ring. Your leader will last a long time as you aren’t constantly cutting it back to add tippet. Tippet rings are a beautiful thing IMO.

I suggest a 4x leader because of the 4x-6x tippet range I typically use nymphing in PA. It’ll turn nymphs and small bobbers over well and is a pretty good all around baseline setup that you can tweak as you see fit.
 
There is certainly a time for tightline of high stick nymphing as well as indicator. It all comes down to stream structure, depth, or particular area. I will often use both depending on the type of water I approach on the same stream.

I keep it REALLY SIMPLE and have no problem catching fish. I will use a store bought 9 ft tapered leader as is right from the package. I can both indicator fish and high stick/tightline. The only time I add tippet is if I want to go smaller than what's on the leader or if my leader is getting shorter than I want. No sighter is necessary to be a good tight like nympher. Just watch a small piece of fly line just outside of your guide at the end of the rod. You can also generally feel the take.

Good luck.
 
I also like a tippet ring. Tie one on with a nail knot and it's not coming off. Then when your fine tippet gets close to the ring, just snip off the old and tie on the new without shorting that next step up on your leader.
 
Beginning to tie my own leaders was perhaps the largest leap forward in my fly fishing skills I took.

The general 1/3 butt, 1/3 taper, and 1/3 tippet works just fine, then adjust the tippet as needed. But the biggest thing for me is the butt and half the taper should be stiff material. I use maxima chameleon. And the last part of the taper and tippet should be as soft as I can get.

And I don't adjust the butt or taper very much. I.e. if I want to fish a 9 foot leader I'll have a 6 foot butt/taper section. But I also have leaders setup to make a 6 or a 12 foot leader, just missing the tippet.

I do adjust tippet a whole lot. A soft, complicated current where drag is everything? Drop down a size and lengthen the tippet. Need to get up under a tight branch? Shorten and go up a size. In my experience, fish aren't line shy, but they are drag shy to varying degrees.

And, if I know I'll ONLY be short line nymphing, I just use an almost level leader. 7 ft of 3x and then 2 ft of 4x or 5x does the trick. The thinner line throughout gets down quicker and less drag. It sucks for casting but in short line nymphing with weight its pretty much a lob anyway.
 
Back
Top