slimy trout, dry leaves

[troutpreserver]

Posters on this forum have submitted many wonderful photographs. Among them are quite a few of fish laying on the ground in dirt and/or leaves. I'm sure we all know that handling fish with dry hands can be harmful to the fish - how is it that laying a fish in dead leaves and dirt to take a photo isn't? When you pick the fish up to return it to the water, are there not dry leaves and dirt stuck to it? With all the emphasis on c&r and saving wild trout, how is this overlooked? How do we know these fish aren't being returned to the water only to perish or develop some disease or infection? I fish over 100 days a year and have been to many of the streams in the pictures (I even recognize some of the "secret" streams) and it's sad to think that someone else is appreciating the same resource I am without realizing the harm they're doing.

I used to post on this forum - the old one, and even the old old one. Lots of people read this stuff, and doing things like naming sensitive streams and showing pictures of the fish you caught there only serves to increase fishing pressure in these places. Furthermore, the people who search the internet for new places to fish are more likely to be the type who are more careless in their exploits than those who would do their own legwork.

As I've found in the past, there's a good chance nobody here really cares or agrees with me and I realize this post will do little to change anyone's actions - I just thought I'd do a little venting on this miserable sleety morning.

 

[JackM]

troutpreserver wrote:
As I've found in the past, there's a good chance nobody here really cares or agrees with me....

Don't be so hard on yourself. I agreed with about 32% of what you said.

 

[CaptMatt]

Im with Troutpreserver on this one although laying a fish on the ground, IF DONE CORRECTLY, to snap a quick picture doesn’t hurt anything again if done correctly. I’m sure many guys handle the fish too much and let it flop around on the rocks which is a shame. Im more an advocate of not broadcasting fishing spots and stream information on the internet. Not only is it foolish it doesn’t make sense. I’m not saying that sharing directions etc... from one fly fisherman to another is foolish. Saying that you caught 100 trout from a certain section and then giving everything but an exact GPS coordinate to the location baffles me. I guess I just don’t understand the reasoning behind it. When I’m not teaching 6th graders, I’m a guide in SW Florida and we all help each other a lot. We don’t however announce a school of 30+ inch redfish to the world wide web.

 

[troutpreserver]

Don't be so hard on yourself. I agreed with about 32% of what you said.

Sweet. Now I know how Dubya feels.

 

[tomgamber]

Not exactly...only 32% of the people agree with Bush because thats all that has any idea what the heck he is talking about. Your post was very clear. I agree 100% with your concern but only 45% with your philosophy. Now, Dubya never got that much approval on anything.

 

[Padraic]

Troutpreserver wrote:

Sweet. Now I know how Dubya feels.

tomgamber wrote:
Not exactly...only 32% of the people agree with Bush because thats all that has any idea what the heck he is talking about.

A reminder guys... we don't do politcal stuff here.

 

[Padraic]

There are a few pics where the trout are on dry rocks or leaves, and I believe the folks involved have been criticized for it in the past (if not here, than on an old board). Anyway, this comes up from time to time and I think anyone who knows how to handle trout would agree with you. Anyone who doesn't would benefit from a more helpful approach.

As for blabbing about hotspots... I tend to agree that this is harmful. I also believe that this is useless. Trout are where the food is. To say that Love Pool on Penns is fishing great for the Green Drake Hatch is (for instance) is stupid for two reasons. By the time anyone gets there, the hatch will have moved and concentrating anglers (if people are dumb enough to listen) is hard on the trout. I don't see people doing that. I do see people saying that a stream is fishing well or worth exploring. IMHO this is how you build a network of people who will work for the stream's protection. People on this site did a great job protecting Big Spring. I strongly believe they would do the same if Penns or Spring were threatened. And if a small, unknown stream is in danger this might be the place to find people who also fish it and care about it.

 

[Fishidiot]

Of course we can all agree that reducing mortality of trout is critical - however there will always be some for whom no method of handling/releasing trout will meet their standard. Folks will disagree on what constitues "safe" handling of fish. I would argue that if you're extremely sensitive to trout mortality you ought not fish at all. All catch and release fishing causes some mortality. I enjoy fish photos and think if you are careful in laying out a fish for a photo you can be reasonably sure that the fish will survive. I don't think some dry leaves would likely be too harmful so long as the fish wasn't dropped or dragged. I think a more critical issue is time out of water. I try very hard to never exceed ten seconds out of water and for this reason always use a net to photograph fish. I use a large bag, soft mesh net which is dipped in the water so it's wet when the fish is netted. A netted fish can be controlled and kept under water. Fooling around with the camera is usually what takes up time for me and I can get this done while the fish is immobilized and able to breath. A net also allows you to lift the fish out of the water without it thrashing out of your hands and falling on rocks. I very gently roll the fish out of the bag, snap a quick photo, drop the camera immediately (its on a neck lanyard), scoop the fish back into the net and transfer it back into the water as quickly as possible. Some would say that a net "bends" fish and this is harmful but a large mesh bag minimizes this even for fish over 20" and I straighten their bodies before setting up the camera. I do look for soft, wet spots like water cress for a photo but if this isn't available, I think grass, snow or gravel is okay so long as one is swift and careful.

 

[dryflyguy]

troutpreserver:

I agree that trout shouldn't be laid down on the ground to get photos and I admit to doing just that a few times when I started flyfishing 25 years ago. I've long since quit that practice though.
Now, I only take fish photos when I have a buddy with me, or ask some else on the stream to kindly snap a picture while I gently cradle the fish with 2 wet hands. If I catch a nice one while alone, and cant get a picture,- then sobeit! I still know what I caught!
A few months ago, there was a photo of a guy holding a nice fish up by the lip - caught in the little lehigh I believe -on this site.
Me, and a few others dissed the guy for holding a fish up that way - I compared it to those bass fisherman on the weekend outdoor shows and asked if maybe he even kissed the fish.
That was a bit harsh I admit now - I was in a grumpy mood that night.
Anyone who can catch a nice fish like that in a tough stream , I'm sure has to be a very good fisherman, and I commend him for it.
I still don't like seeing a fish held up that way though, and I would have said the same thing to any of my buddies for doing that.

 

[MKern]

Has there even bee a study done that trout die from being laid on leaves??? So how do we know if it hurts them?
I know that dry objects removes slime. However, I read that the trout can only get that white infection if that particular bacteria lives in that water. And lucky for most of the trout we catch, that bacteria isn't found in most of PA's streams.
Time out of water is critical, but as long a the gills stay moist (takes over five minutes to start to dry out) the fish will be okay.
I agree that too often fish bounce around stream side: on rocks and brush. But if the fish is landed in a net and laid out carfully to snap a picture, nothing should give the fish complications.

In addition, what about the stressed felt by the fish because a metal object was slammed through its mouth, then it was counter fought for a few minutes while it was tring to swim the opposite way. That elevated stress level is also life threatening to fish, especially brookies. So should we stop fishing?!?!
Part of the sport is enjoying catching fish, and part of catching fish is remembering the experience and celebrating your catch with a photo.

I sincerely agree that fish should be handle causiously and respected.

P.S. Never underestimate the will to survive.

 

[2bonthewater]

I've just started posting on this site.....with photos and what streams......I have not seen a grand explosion of fisherman on the waters I have stated.....and these waters are an easy find.....not much hidden water in SE PA........

we must protect the resource........and I am all for that......
I love sharing photos and viewing photos of others.....keep posting my fellow fishermen...and fisherladies......

These are just my thoughts.....we all fish.......we all do things different........

 

[MKern]

My post above is not ment to offend anyone. If anything I agree with everyone else. Plus we are all guily of taking pictures.
All I am tring to say is that taking pictures probably doesn't hurt the fish and more that catching it.

For example, I photograph about 90% of the native brookies I catch; even those under 5 inches. I visit the same mountian streams several times every year. the fishing quality has never decreased in those streams, it has only increased. Matter of fact, the fish over the past 2 years, on average, have been bigger. Which means, more than likely, I have photographed those same fish (on the bank or in my hand) as youngsters.

However, I will admit my landing of the brookies is not always smooth, because of the drastic and violent trashing to free themselves. Knowing this and tring to better myself as a responsible angler, starting this coming spring, I will use one of those green fish-tank nets to land the fish on mountain streams.

 

[tabasco_joe]

MKern; I've seen some studies that suggest that over 2 minutes out of the water and the fish could start to have some brain damage that will eventually kill the fish. I'm sure this varies by temperature, fish size and health, how stressed it was during landing, etc. My personal goal is to get the fish back in the water in 60 seconds. If I fumble around with the camera and it seems to be taking too long I pass up the picture and put the fish back.

My philosophy on how others handle fish is simple. If the person seems intent on trying to handle the fish gently then I can't be very critical. Out on the stream stuff happens and even the best of us has a fish here or there that we wish we could have handled better.

 

[thedude1534]

Seeing as I'm still pretty new flyfishing (or trout fishing more specifically), I may not be handling the fish right when I'm taking out the hook, snaping a photo, and releasing. I'd like to run by my catch and release procedure, so you all could tell me if I'm doing anything stupid or harmful to the fish....

For small fish (less than 10") - when I bring them in close enough I stick my hand in the water and slowly cup them. I bring them about 6" out of the water to take the hook out. This usually lasts about 5-30 seconds depending on where the hook is, how small, etc. I feel that 30 secs is too long, so I've been making a concious effort to have all my equipement in hand (or mouth) before I bring them out of the water so I don't have to fondle around trying to get out my forcepts and such. Once the hook is out, and I feel like taking a picture, I will keep the fish lightly cupped in my hand, applying just enough grip to not let it dart off, and submerge it back in the water. Once my camera stuff is ready, I'll lift it back up out of the water, about 6", take the picture, and put it back in. Once I let go they almost always dart off, which I hope is a sign that they weren't too beat up by the expirience.

For bigger fish - The process is pretty much the same, except I get them in the net and don't hold them with my hands. Also, when I take the hook out, I try to just lift the head out of the water and not the whole body. However, when some insist on thrashing around in the net, I have to lift them out so they'll calm down. The only other time I will lift the whole body out is when I'm ready for a picture. When I release them I shake their tail a little bit and they'll swim away (the big ones don't dart off like the little ones will).

Please let me know if there's anything in that process which I'm doing wrong. Thanks,

 

[ryanh]

Troutpreserver,
#1 most of these photos have been floating around since the old site.

#2 your criticism is not new to this board. Please keep in mind that on the majority of these streams it would be perfectly legal to kill and keep the fish you see in these pictures.

Flyfishers get tagged with an elitist label. Posts such as yours illustrate where some of this comes from. If you have posted here over the years you would notice that this is one of the best behaved and most responsible flyfishing boards. Also as individguals the great majority of guys on here are exemplary stewards of the water and the fish.

 

[troutbert]

I agree that it's good to think about the health and welfare of trout while catching them and releasing them. But keep in mind that in the past the typical procedure was to put the trout on a stringer and drag them around the rest of the day. So a quick roll in dry leaves should probably be considered an improvement over that.

I remember hearing the saying that you can fool some of the people all the time. But I didn't realize that it was 32 percent of the people.

 

[RLeeP]

>>I agree that it's good to think about the health and welfare of trout while catching them and releasing them. But keep in mind that in the past the typical procedure was to put the trout on a stringer and drag them around the rest of the day. So a quick roll in dry leaves should probably be considered an improvement over that.>>

I'll sign on to this. All things are relative and rigidly exacting behavior and blemishless actions are for working with plutonium and the priesthood respectively.

It's a noble notion to question whether we hurt fish when we lay them down for a quick photo and we should certainly do all we can to ensure virtually all of them survive. But in the larger view when all things from angler harvest to anchor ice to lurking herons and episodic drought to, on the other side, wet summers, exceptional year classes and optimal flows when the redds are in place are considered, I'm not sure we're really talking about anything that has or is likely to have.

Just my view...

 

[troutpreserver]

This is how I photograph trout, but I'm lucky enough to have a one-handed camera (Sony DSC-U60). My hand is wet (and cold) - it was taken Monday in southeast PA. I guess it's easier when they're small...

More than one poster suggested that laying a fish in the leaves is better than putting it on a stringer. Indeed... :-(

Flyfishers get tagged with an elitist label.

I'll take elitist. I don't really care what other fishermen think of my choice of tackle or method of pursuit...

 

[dave1066]

I think you guys need to get away from the computer a bit... the cold weather and cabin fever is making everyone a little cranky!?!

BTW I fished the Chatahoochee this past Sunday and landed 8 or so.... ;-)

 

[MattBoyer]

This is how I photograph trout, but I'm lucky enough to have a one-handed camera (Sony DSC-U60). My hand is wet (and cold) - it was taken Monday in southeast PA. I guess it's easier when they're small...

More than one poster suggested that laying a fish in the leaves is better than putting it on a stringer. Indeed... :-(

...

I would have to say that as an occasional trout eater(not in the last 2 years, but I do eat them) it nobody's business how I handle a trout. I guess I appreciate those who do good more than I prefer to chastise those of whom I don't approve. It's odd to think that a person who practices C&R is questioned by another who practices C&R when there are dudes out there literally taking hundreds of fish a season home to the fridge. For the record, I handle my trout roughly the same way you do, always with cold and wet hands, rarely more than an inch or 2 above the water. Sometimes if they are big I won't even take them out of the water. I would have to defer at this point to the aforementioned:

RLeeP wrote:
>>I agree that it's good to think about the health and welfare of trout while catching them and releasing them. But keep in mind that in the past the typical procedure was to put the trout on a stringer and drag them around the rest of the day. So a quick roll in dry leaves should probably be considered an improvement over that.>>

I'll sign on to this. All things are relative and rigidly exacting behavior and blemishless actions are for working with plutonium and the priesthood respectively.

It's a noble notion to question whether we hurt fish when we lay them down for a quick photo and we should certainly do all we can to ensure virtually all of them survive. But in the larger view when all things from angler harvest to anchor ice to lurking herons and episodic drought to, on the other side, wet summers, exceptional year classes and optimal flows when the redds are in place are considered, I'm not sure we're really talking about anything that has or is likely to have.

Just my view...

That's pretty friggin eloquent dude!

I think you guys need to get away from the computer a bit... the cold weather and cabin fever is making everyone a little cranky!?!...

Snowed in at the hotel where I work. Wife was home all day. Sorry for the rant!

Boyer