Sink Tips

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pwk5017

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Jan 15, 2011
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Ok, I need some help understanding sink tips. I was fishing the yough yesterday, and mainly fishing tandem streamers with my 7wt. The whole time I was thinking, "I wish i were getting my flies deeper" I hooked a bunch of rainbows, but had to mend like crazy to get my flies down 3'ish in the fast current. The fish were holding at least 6'ish, but the water was decently clear, so i could see them rise to take my streamer. As basic as it seems, I dont think I fully understand how sink tips are applied. Are they additions onto floating fly lines to turn them into a sinking line? I have multiple spare spools, but I am looking for a way to switch from streamers to nymphs without having to change reel spools etc. Looking at this product currently http://buy.scientificanglers.com/lines/fly-lines/custom-cut-express-tips.html What does this do to your casting ability? Looking for any and all opinions on this one, cause I am clueless.
 
For SW fishing I use sinking line (actually a shoot head system) but for freshwater fishing, I most often use poly leaders to get down in the situation you describe.

Poly leaders come in different lengths and weights and attach loop-to-loop on the end of your floating line. The are tapered and allow you to cast fairly well. In my experience the super fast sinkers overload your rod, but the moderately fast sinking ones cast okay and can get you down where you want to be. Try a 7' poly leader mid-weight sinking poly leader designed for a 7wt.

It's easy to rig up. Loop-to-loop on the end of your fly line with a 3-4' straight mono leader on the terminal end.

 
Excellent, that sounds like the setup I am looking for. Realistically, I am looking to have my flies at a consistent depth of 4-6' in decently fast water. Heres a question for you though, who makes these leaders? SA only shows spey tips, and rio's versileader looks to be pretty similar to the spey tips. Do they go by a different name?
 
Wait, I see Rio makes the 7' one you were talking about. SOB, i get SA at a discount...
 
Using sink-tips and sinking lines can get complicated. I'm still on the early part of the learning curve with them.

And the phrase "learning curve" is weirdly appropriate, because so much of the line control has to do with keeping a belly out of the line. Without that, you don't have much of a hope of tracking your fly, hooking fish, avoiding rip-tide levels of drag that snatch your fly along at jet speed, or keeping the line from getting snagged on bottom structure or looped around stream boulders.

Important: keep your leader short, or it will belly too- usually upward from the sunk line. You want the fly to stay in the same water column as the line. Between 3' and 4' is about right. Any more than 5' and it can be very tough to hook fish.

The sink-tip leaders I've used have a tendency to seriously hinge, particularly with the lighter line weights. I think it's worth it to use an actual sink-tip line. They have a tendency to hinge also, but they're more manageable than the weighted leaders I've tried.

The weighted leaders tend to have a larger diameter than the tapered tip of the floating line they're connected to, along with much more weight than a tapered line tip- at least in the line weights I was using. And using a loop to loop connection makes the hinging problem even worse. You might be able to compensate on a 7 weight by trimming the tip back to get a smoother transition and turnover, and you might be able to improve on a loop connection by using one of those plastic snap connectors, or even doing a splice. But I think it's easier just to get a sink-tip line.

(You can fish nymphs with sink-tips, too, although not with the usual nymphing techniques. Although the real fun is using them with unweighted soft hackles.)

This is where it gets complicated: sink-tip lines come with different length sinking tips. And it's tough to know the best length without having some experience with them on the water.

I recommend getting a one with a fast-sinking 15' tip in the proper line weight to start. Depending on the flies you're throwing, you may find that one size lighter or heavier works better. Line weight is less critical than with floating lines. 15' is more than you need for most rivers, but it's better than buying one that's too short.

Then cast it on the river- preferably in clear water conditions where you can see it underwater- and observe how it works on the drift and retrieve in different depths of water, and current speeds.

That will all depend on the water you're fishing, of course. That's why I said that it gets complicated. For ease of line handling and hooking fish, shorter is always better- preferably no more than the rod length plus 2'. The most important thing is to get the fly down and tracking more or less straight off the rod tip.

In a situation like the one you're describing- 6', fast current- I'm not even sure that a sink-tip is the right answer. You may find that you prefer a full sinking line- a type III or IV fast-sinker.

One seriously effective way of fishing streamers for big trout holding in stretches of heavy current with a depth of 2'-4' (or in slightly slower and deeper water) is to use a type III sinking line with big flies, cast upstream, and hustle like crazy on the hand retrieve to keep the line taut, pulling the fly along in foot-long jerks, like the down stroke of strumming a guitar.

It isn't really possible to do that with a sink-tip, because it's unlikely that the fly will get to the bottom, and you'll find that the floating part of the line has a different agenda than the sinking part in fast water. The floating portion gets pulled along the water surface much faster than the sunken tip, which has a way of screwing things up monumentally.

You can work the fly down and across in fast deep runs with a sink-tip, but the drifts are short, you cover a lot less water per cast, and the presentation isn't as realistic as the upstream method. Not that the downstream method won't take fish sometimes...
 
Barbless, you just blew my mind a little...

Let me read that once more and I will respond. You almost have me sold on buying a new line. However, if i do get a new sink tip/full sinking line, then the question becomes "which to get?". My current problem is that I have only taken one fish on a nymph from the yough, so i always go to what works--streamers. Unfortunately, then I get into the issue I previously described where im fishing moderately deep runs that have some pace to them and I simply cant get my flies deep enough. I just described about 80% of the yough that I have fished during normal flows. Do you carry spare spools and swap them out during a normal day of fishing, and how much of a pain is this?
 
I like using sinking lines for lakes and big water with deep pools and runs, but the veratility of sink tip for mediu, sized water and big water can't be unstated. If you're switching frequently between streamers and nymphs it's quicker to use the sink tips. You'll also be able to track your fly a bit better.
 
Personal opinion: 4ft sink tip ,sinking leader,4ft, add about a foot or more tippet and forget the split shot. My sink tips are Teeney's,fwiw. I use these set ups in the Ontario Tribs and have done well on browns,salmon and an Atlantic or two. I am not a fan of floating lines and 9 ft leaders and split shot.Personally I think the sink tip rig casts better than the floating line setup. GG
 
Barbless wrote
Using sink-tips and sinking lines can get complicated. I'm still on the early part of the learning curve with them.

And the phrase "learning curve" is weirdly appropriate, because so much of the line control has to do with keeping a belly out of the line. Without that, you don't have much of a hope of tracking your fly, hooking fish, avoiding rip-tide levels of drag that snatch your fly along at jet speed, or keeping the line from getting snagged on bottom structure or looped around stream boulders.

Important: keep your leader short, or it will belly too- usually upward from the sunk line. You want the fly to stay in the same water column as the line. Between 3' and 4' is about right. Any more than 5' and it can be very tough to hook fish.

The sink-tip leaders I've used have a tendency to seriously hinge, particularly with the lighter line weights. I think it's worth it to use an actual sink-tip line. They have a tendency to hinge also, but they're more manageable than the weighted leaders I've tried.

The weighted leaders tend to have a larger diameter than the tapered tip of the floating line they're connected to, along with much more weight than a tapered line tip- at least in the line weights I was using. And using a loop to loop connection makes the hinging problem even worse. You might be able to compensate on a 7 weight by trimming the tip back to get a smoother transition and turnover, and you might be able to improve on a loop connection by using one of those plastic snap connectors, or even doing a splice. But I think it's easier just to get a sink-tip line.

(You can fish nymphs with sink-tips, too, although not with the usual nymphing techniques. Although the real fun is using them with unweighted soft hackles.)

This is where it gets complicated: sink-tip lines come with different length sinking tips. And it's tough to know the best length without having some experience with them on the water.

I recommend getting a one with a fast-sinking 15' tip in the proper line weight to start. Depending on the flies you're throwing, you may find that one size lighter or heavier works better. Line weight is less critical than with floating lines. 15' is more than you need for most rivers, but it's better than buying one that's too short.

Then cast it on the river- preferably in clear water conditions where you can see it underwater- and observe how it works on the drift and retrieve in different depths of water, and current speeds.

That will all depend on the water you're fishing, of course. That's why I said that it gets complicated. For ease of line handling and hooking fish, shorter is always better- preferably no more than the rod length plus 2'. The most important thing is to get the fly down and tracking more or less straight off the rod tip.

In a situation like the one you're describing- 6', fast current- I'm not even sure that a sink-tip is the right answer. You may find that you prefer a full sinking line- a type III or IV fast-sinker.

One seriously effective way of fishing streamers for big trout holding in stretches of heavy current with a depth of 2'-4' (or in slightly slower and deeper water) is to use a type III sinking line with big flies, cast upstream, and hustle like crazy on the hand retrieve to keep the line taut, pulling the fly along in foot-long jerks, like the down stroke of strumming a guitar.

It isn't really possible to do that with a sink-tip, because it's unlikely that the fly will get to the bottom, and you'll find that the floating part of the line has a different agenda than the sinking part in fast water. The floating portion gets pulled along the water surface much faster than the sunken tip, which has a way of screwing things up monumentally.

You can work the fly down and across in fast deep runs with a sink-tip, but the drifts are short, you cover a lot less water per cast, and the presentation isn't as realistic as the upstream method. Not that the downstream method won't take fish sometimes...


pwk5017 wrote:
Barbless, you just blew my mind a little...

Let me read that once more and I will respond. You almost have me sold on buying a new line. However, if i do get a new sink tip/full sinking line, then the question becomes "which to get?". My current problem is that I have only taken one fish on a nymph from the yough, so i always go to what works--streamers. Unfortunately, then I get into the issue I previously described where im fishing moderately deep runs that have some pace to them and I simply cant get my flies deep enough. I just described about 80% of the yough that I have fished during normal flows. Do you carry spare spools and swap them out during a normal day of fishing, and how much of a pain is this?


Barbless, what type polyleader have you used? The ones made today are tapered and cast and sink well.

Also, a full sink line in moving water is not the way to go, IMO. A full sink is best suited for still water situations. A sink tip line or a poly leader is able to be mended through, actually over the conflicting currents of moving water. Also you must retrieve nearly all the line to recast a full sink. A lot of work and a real PITA.


Here’s more info:

The term “Polyleader” was first coined by Airflo. Rio Products also produces a “Versi Leader” system that is similar to the Airflo product in construction and use. As their names imply, these are leader systems that vary in material composition, length (from 6 to 15 feet), and sink rates (from floating to 7 inches per second or “ips”). The construction of the polyleader involves using a level core of monofilament and then applying a supple tapered coating in a wide variety of densities for different presentations.

The purpose of tapering the leader is to store the energy from the fly line on the forward cast and then dissipate that energy smoothly as the cast unrolls and straightens before it settles on the water’s surface. The taper of the leader essentially becomes an extension of the forward taper of the fly line to create the most accurate and efficient presentation possible with the fly.

By contrast, when two lines of varying diameter and density are connected to each other and then cast, they often “hinge” and are unable to transfer and sustain energy to fully and accurately turn over the fly. Hinge is virtually non-existent with tapered leaders. This creates tighter loops that will defeat nearly any wind and can be used effectively with all but the largest flies. In the case of the sinking leaders, the taper also works to lessen drag – and that allows the leader and fly to sink deceptively fast within the water column. In many cases, polyleaders sink as fast or faster than level sinking line of equal or slightly greater mass and density.
Both Rio and Airflo manufacture these leaders with welded loops that attach via loop to loop connections to any fly line. The front end has an exposed core at the tip to attach varying lengths of tippet.

Smoother and more efficient turnover in most fishing conditions, greater accuracy, variety of use and application, and efficient sinking properties make us big fans of these leaders. They just might become the most versatile fishing tool in your bag too.

Link to source: http://www.deneki.com/2009/12/polyleaders-what-they-are-and-why-we-like-them/


Here are some offering for poly leaders:

http://www.tackledirect.com/airligtroutp.html

http://www.flyfishusa.com/leaders/polyleaders/polyleaders.htm

http://www.orvis.com/store/product.aspx?adv=99656&pf_id=1R5G&utm_campaign=bazaarvoice&utm_medium=SearchVoice&utm_source=RatingsAndReviews&utm_content=Default

They should work well in the situation you describe. Give them a try. At $7.95 it’s a lot cheaper than spending a hundred dollars or more on a new spool and line.

Like I said in my earlier post, I use them for nearly all FW fishing situations. They cast well, get you down where you need to be, and catch fish.

Good luck.
 
I've been fortunate to pick up my sink-tip lines for free in used but usable condition, spooled on reels that I've bought. So expense hasn't been a problem for me. I have more than I can presently use, really.

(I've learned to be a terrible shark as far as buying my favorite used reels on eBay. It's a crying shame, really. I'm am well-stocked.)

I think the poly sinking leader I had was a Rio. To be fair, in retrospect I wasn't using it appropriately- the line was too light, the rest of the leader too long, the current too slow...

Full sinking lines are a PITA. But they do work well in constant heavy flow and water over 2 1/2' deep.
 
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