Run off land that was not private - what would you do?

[salmonoid]

A few weeks ago, I got up early, hoping to take advantage of a heavy rainstorm that had passed through the night before. A number of streams that I crossed were already mostly clear, so I thought I might have missed my chance, but when I eventually arrived at the stream, I found that while it wasn't blown out, it was easily a double, if not triple chocolate milk clarity. I threw some streamers anyway, thinking for sure I'd pick up a strike, but took the skunk. Moved on to another stream that I was 100% certain was on public land and started fishing upstream, again with no hits. About a hundred fifty yards into my excursion, I heard a voice. I looked around and initially did not see anyone, but then eventually identified someone standing on a driveway nearby. I thought he was asking how the fishing was but couldn't really hear him clearly, so I moved over to the bank closest to him. The voice belonged to about a 14 year old boy and he asked me if I knew I was on private property and I told him that no, I did not, that I thought I was on public land and that I did not see any signs. He told me that it was private property and that it would be best if I would leave and the signs were there.

Given the crappy morning I was having connecting with fish, and the fact that I honor property owners' rights, I threw in the towel and started to walk downstream. He shadowed me the whole way to the road. I climbed out and decided to see if I could get permission to fish in the future. I apologized again for trespassing, telling him again that I had honestly thought I was on public land and he showed me a sign at the end of his driveway, stating "This is what a No Trespassing sign looks like". The sign was partially detached from the tree and rolled up. This upped the irritation level with me just a tad. I asked him if he had ever caught fish in the stream - he said "No, just little nibbles". I asked him if his family ever let anyone fish on their property and he said "No, it's pretty much just been my family that can fish here - no one has really asked". He went on about a place that he had caught fish - there was a big tree and a horse barn and fences and he thought maybe I should go there. I have no idea where he was talking about - I think he pretty much meant anywhere but where I was at. I got a really big whiff of someone being intentionally evasive and shifty. And with that, I gave up and went on my way for the day, to a stream that I was certain was on public land.

Today, for some reason, I was thinking about this encounter. I was bothered by either my inability to read a map of land ownership and access, or the fact that I was lied to, so I looked up the parcels in question. Turns out my initial research and memory was correct. I was on 100% public land the whole time. The landowner has a small tract well off the road; the driveway is no more than a long right-of-way through the public land to the property. The reason I did not see any signs is because there were no signs. Whatever his motives were, the kid was 100% lying to me.

What would you do? I have no desire to antagonize private land owners, but I would love to write this kid's parents and tell them about their son's actions. Maybe it is a case of like father/mother, like son and my revelations would fall on deaf ears anyway. Unlike some in the angling world, I do not believe that my desire to angle trumps land owner rights, but clearly, there were no land rights involved with the individual I was speaking with.

 

[troutbert]

Report it to the agency who owns the land that you were run off of.

 

[McSneek]

salmonoid wrote:
I would love to write this kid's parents and tell them about their son's actions. Maybe it is a case of like father/mother, like son and my revelations would fall on deaf ears anyway.

You described him as being about 14 years old. I doubt this kid, on his own, decided to tell claim you were on private property in order to chase you off his "private" stream. I suspect the parents have been doing the same thing and he is just following the lead. While you may never go back there, there must be someone who would be interested to know a person or persons are claiming public land as their own.

 

[The_Sasquatch]

Hahaha that's unreal, man. I've wanted so bad to have a navigable debate with a certain land owner on a certain navigable stream in Lebanon, but always wuss out of it.

What I WOULD do, probably, is go back and fish the stream. If you're 100% certain it's private, and fairly certain these people won't shoot you, call their bluff. They can call the cops if you're trespassing...

 

[foxtrapper1972]

This happens all the time. Here in Lancaster Co. people are posting land that is not theirs. My son was run off public land by a couple idiots on the opening day of spring gobbler. They told him the area is now a private hunting club....All BS of course (it is owned by the power co). I've run into other "landowners" who attempted to tell me they owned a section of stream....It is not posted and I have a suspicion they don't own it. I could tell you quite a few stories about this type of crap. I honestly don't know what can be done about it or if any laws are in place or who would enforce them. I've long believed we should have stream access to all waterways and not have to go to court about navigability.

 

[Luke]

+1 to McSneeks reply. This kid probably believes what he is telling you.

 

[Zak]

I'd do nothing at all and completely forget the encounter and show up to fish it the next time, whenever you feel like it, with a print out of that parcel map in your back pocket. At the very worst I'd contact the public parcel owner and kindly let them know about the issue so it's on record. In fact I would get an email address on the property manager and email them directly so you truely have it on record. Phone calls are worthless these days.....

The only caveat to all this is that those parcel maps aren't always 100% correct. If you really wanna be sure take that map to whomever owns it and confirm that you are right.

 

[k-bob]

I recently went to some lengths to find publicly owned open-space land that lets me get on the upper part of a grrreeaaattt small stream. a neighbor right next to this large but unmarked tract did not know that it was public. he listened, and I convinced him, but people may not know when land that borders their own is in public. and people anywhere can be surprised to see the rare fishermen of small streams in for ex a remote state forest.

I like to fish in woodsy settings, so I try to avoid being close to houses as much as possible. or at least that guy knows me now...

 

[Swattie87]

I would’ve taken out the Rattlesnake that I carry in my pack for protection and thrown it at him.

Truthfully, I probably would’ve reacted similarly to you and just fished somewhere else, or at least skipped the section around that property +/- 100 yards on either side as a buffer. One section of stream, even when you’re right, just isn’t worth the potential hassle. If I was there again, and saw an opportunity to speak to the parents, I may ask them for permission to fish (and if they said no, explain my understanding of the property boundaries), but there isn’t a whole lot of sense in discussing property/trespassing laws with a 14 year old. I probably wouldn’t mention my previous conversation with the son to the parents – nothing to be gained there. If the parents granted permission and the son hassled you again, all you’d have to say is I spoke to your parents and have their permission to fish here (whether you needed it or not). I understand this shouldn’t be in question, as I’m sure you’re right on the property boundaries and where the public land starts, but still…probably not worth the hassle in the end.

As the others have mentioned, you can let the rightful public landowner know, but I doubt that will do much. Once stuff like this happens to me on a section of stream, it leaves a sour taste in my mouth that I associate negatively with the stream, and I often don’t even want to go back. Plenty of streams with good, unquestioned access and a more pleasant all around experience to occupy my relatively limited fishing time.

 

[pcray1231]

I wouldn't go back without taking some sort of action first. I'd either do nothing and not go back there. Or else I'd contact whoever is responsible for the land.

It's possible McSneak's response is dead on, and the parents run off people. If it's a rarely fished stream, it's also quite possible that they never really faced people trying to get in ther, but the kid and/or the family truly believed they owned it, potentially having some "illegal" activities back in there to protect.

Near where I grew up a mid-teens kid also ran some people off his property claiming it to be his. The main access was through their property but there were other ways in and I think the kid thought his parents did own it. His parents did not know he was doing this. Well, a neighbor went back there anyway, on a hunch, and found a bunch of pot, then told the father, who did nothing. So he told the police.

Just something to think about. You were most likely in the right. But do you want to risk your life to prove it?

 

[OldLefty]

I've thought long and hard about what I'd do if I were ever confronted by someone about "trespassing" when, in fact, I was on public land. I have a friend that was confronted on Fishing Creek in Clinton Co. similar to your experience; however, he was confronted by an adult who was less than polite. When we discussed his experience I informed him that there were PA Game Commission plated on a tree right where he was confronted.

First, you must be 100% sure you are on public land. If so, be sure to carry a copy of a map from an official record which proves your position. Go back, fish, and hope you're approached again. This will afford you the opportunity to rebut the claim of the accuser. After you've made your point and provided documentation to support your rebuttal you are in a position to inform your accuser that there are laws in the commonwealth against harassment of sportsmen and you believe that your accuser is engaging in activity which would be construed to be harassment. The key here is to ensure that you can provide, on the spot, documentation to support your position. If it's the young person and he continues to stick to his position, it's an immediate "let's go talk to your parents and resolve this."

Here's where you need to be aware of the fact that some folks, while they well know they have no legal control of property, act as though they own it. There are instances here in my neck o' the woods when someone owning adjoining property has accused people of trespassing threatened to shoot them. And these folks mean every word they say. Encounters with the authorities mean little to these folks and that's downright scary.

I know that, with my knowledge of what happened to my friend, I would have walked said accuser up to the plate on the tree and showed him proof of his error. Had I experienced additional grief from said accuser I would have indicated to him he has 15 seconds to vacate the area or else... Obviously, I don't tolerate someone trying to intimidate me with lies and threats.

While I would never advocate others doing what I may do, there's a bit of satisfaction in "bringing down" someone who feels they wield power over others. In my friend's case the accuser was being a bully and I'm confident he wouldn't have pushed much further.

 

[tomitrout]

14yr old kid? I would've asked to speak to his parents and clear it up there on the spot.

 

[PALongbow]

You should be able to access to the tax maps and the property owners that own the land however the tax maps are sometimes not that accurate so be forewarned. At least that will give you some idea who actually owns the land. Stream accessibility also varies so know the facts about whether or not the stream can be accessed. The 'so called' access through high and low water marks don't apply everywhere.

Ron

 

[salvelinusfontinalis]

if this stream is in lancaster id be curious as to which one and what section

 

[wildtrout2]

Zak wrote:
I'd do nothing at all and completely forget the encounter and show up to fish it the next time, whenever you feel like it, with a print out of that parcel map in your back pocket.

The only caveat to all this is that those parcel maps aren't always 100% correct. If you really wanna be sure take that map to whomever owns it and confirm that you are right.

The best advice I've heard yet, couldn't agree more.

 

[salvelinus]

OldLefty wrote:
In my friend's case the accuser was being a bully and I'm confident he wouldn't have pushed much further.

I may be wrong, but this wouldn't surprise me as the reason for most of these incidents.

 

[poopdeck]

Everybody who thinks that walking a 14 year old up to speak to his parents would resolve anything would be sorely mistaken 75% of the time. It has been my experience that parents will fiercly defend their little cherubs. Absolutely the wrong move.

Onto the only right thing to do. You cannot be guilty of tresspassing unless notice was first given that tresspassing is not permitted. This is typically done through fences, walls, signs, and verbally telling you so. If you climb a wall, fence or ignore signs you are tresspassing. If you are told you are tresspassing then you cannot be fined until the next time you show up without permission.

If none of these conditions exist my reccomendations would be to contact the police and let them deal with the lad and his parents while you fish. If you are wrong you will simply be asked to leave knowing that next time you come you will be fined.

 

[MVHagey]

+1 to poopdeck

Generally children are just scanned copies of their parents. Who do you think he learned it from?

 

[tomitrout]

Everybody who thinks that walking a 14 year old up to speak to his parents would resolve anything would be sorely mistaken 75% of the time.

Well, then I guess it's not worth trying for the other 25% then... :roll:

I'd at least like to be run off the property by the actual landowner.

 

[Van_Cleaver]

I once confronted a guy who was fishing off the dam the top of the FFO on Ridley Creek. He was bait fishing with his two kids and wife and had trout on a stringer. He didn't even pretend to be mistaken, but claimed it was the only place in the stream with trout. Didn't have a cell at the time (many years ago) so I stated he could be fined, (didn't phase him) and followed with "you're certainly setting a fine example for your sons." He was a total dim wit and probably would have persisted but his wife had the sense to make him leave. Point being that kids are often the product of their upbringing.