River and lake pre-spawn browns

[salmonoid]

Swattie and I spent a few days in the vicinity of the ANF the end of last week, into the weekend. I've long wanted to try and target some of the bigger river or lake run browns in the fall, and things sort of fell together for an extended weekend, when we were looking to schedule things out. The big shot of rain the region received earlier in the week looked like the perfect trigger to move some fish, and a second smaller pulse on Thursday blew out even some of the smaller streams we wanted to fish. But, after fishing for a number of days, and walking some 20+ miles, I'm not sure we saw a single brown that had run out of a larger body of water. We discussed a number of items as we looked for fish, and for those that have successfully targeted these fish, I'm wondering what your experience has been relating to these questions:

1) What is the residency period of the larger fish? Brown71 posted last year about a stream he visits almost daily, because the window for the fish to be in the stream and out again was something like three days. I don't have the ability to visit streams on a daily basis, so I want to give myself the best chance to be on some moving fish, knowing that I might be scheduling a cabin rental six months out. If that window is so tight as three days, it's definitely a needle in a haystack. But if is closer to three weeks, that is a little more likely to have an encounter.

2) What is the density of larger fish that you usually encounter? My only real experience with lake run fish is Lake Erie tribs steelhead, and given that they are stocked seemingly by the millions, I'm not expecting to encounter anywhere near that (sickening) density of returned fish. But order of magnitude, what do you normally encounter? A few? A dozen? Two dozen? A hundred fish in a decent size stream?

3) What time of the fall or early winter seems to draw the larger fish out? In the same post last year from Brown71, he gave a date of December 18. That of course is over a month and a half away from when we had the option to fish, and in hindsight, I'm pretty confident we were early this year. We saw exactly two fish that seemed to be paired and doing the circle dance, and absolutely nothing that resembled a redd.

4) How far up on a medium or small tributary do the browns run? We fished one stream that had good flow and a few potential spawning gravel sites close to it's mouth. Four miles upstream, it obviously was smaller and had split into a number of different branches, but habitat was good there and there were potential spawning sites there too. Stocked trout stream it was, and we didn't move a holdover fish anywhere we tried, upper or lower stretches of the stream, despite the nice look to it. Will the larger fish use the first site they locate, or do they push as high as possible in a drainage?

5) Temperature has been cool a few nights, but there has not been a prolonged cold snap yet. Do you find that this is necessary to move fish? Or that the larger water body temperature must fall below a certain level?

6) Any thoughts on what makes a runner decide to take up residence in a smaller body of water? Habitat is I'm sure a primary factor. I sometimes wonder what a fish thinks about as it moves along and assesses potential new homes (in as much as a fish "thinks" - it's probabl more how it responds to feeling protected in a given location, and then having a food source).

Not looking for specific spots, but I guess more general observations on when and the types of locations you've been able to find river or lake run browns, so that we can increase our chances of at least spotting a few brutes if the opportunity comes our way again. I know there is no silver bullet, and I'm sure if I had more time to explore, I'd be able to answer all these questions out of my own experience. But I've got finite vacation, a family and it's four hours one way to get to that region.

 

[steveo27]

I dont have much to add other than Ive found it hard to find wild browns in ANF, let alone consistently.

Even the streams that are suppose to hold them wont give up their bounty for me.

ANF seems to hold more gemmie water than anything.

Im curious to see some responses to these questions as ANF is one of my favorite regions in PA.

 

[gulfgreyhound]

I believe it's all about water temps. and amount of water flowing in the creeks. I do know that the big browns in New York run out of Ontario startingt just about now. No rain not much of a run. When the water gets up the fish will move into and upstream. I'm sure the amount of light also determines when the runs begin.
i KNOW IN NEW YOIRK THE BROWNS OVERWINTER AND DROP BACK IN EARLY SPRING? FEB/ MARCH? THAT FISHERIES IS PRETTY MUCH IGNORED except by the locals.
As far as creeek fish in Pa. they should be likely to follow a similar pattern.
FWIW. GG

 

[FarmerDave]

I didn't read all of the OP because it was TL, but read some of it so I got the general gist.

Wild Browns aren't very common in the ANF creeks. There are big browns in the rivers, but many of the smaller streams are too acidic.

I personally do not fish for spawning fish (cept for steelhead).

If you want to find big browns moving up the smaller streams this time of year in the ANF, look for streams that are higher PH.

I don't think stream chemestry info is readily available anymore, but it can be deduced in many cases from published lists.

For example, Class A. If it is class A, it is higher PH.

But we all know that Class A and even B are few and far between in the ANF.

Another place to look would be the the stocking lists for a general idea of the PH. Since there are VERY few class A and B streams in the ANF due to the geology in the area. The vast majority are class C or D. Consequently, nearly every stream that is large enough, and has fairly easy access is stocked.

Look for what type of trout is stocked.

If a stream gets only brook trout stocked in it, that is a good indication that it is too acidic. If it gets rainbows and/or browns, then probably less acidic.

Please remember, this is just opinion about clues that are readily available and presented only as a general rule.

 

[Brown71]

Salmonid, I think you are just a little early. The places that I find them, they are not there yet either.

Even on the main stream that I catch them out of (NOT flowing into a lake, it flows into a larger river known to hold very large browns) they also aren't there yet. This is not the place I caught the one in the post last year.

But, I know little about the ANF tribs. Maybe that is not even a place that gets consistent runs, I really don't know for sure. But, I will say this, if you found some places that you have a personal strong conviction that they may or should be there, give it another try later. It wouldn't surprise me to find them there.

As I state every fall, this happens WAY more than most fisherman, spin or fly realize, on MANY different waterways. The locals in the know do a great job of keeping these places quiet and I don't blame them. One of the best and most consistent places I know/heard of is actually in the general area of central-eastern PA that a lot of posters on this board live near I believe. There has even been some posts about on this board about people finding pods of browns 18" to 30" in these areas.

If you don manage to find some, go back to the area every year. They will likely be back.

Hope that helps you some.

 

[RLeep2]

Well, this is certainly an intriguing topic and those are interesting questions. Over my fishing lifetime, I've put in a lot of hours chasing wild trout in that area and in pretty much every season.

This doesn't mean I have any sort of worthwhile answer to all of the questions. I don't. I doubt that anybody does..

I'll make a couple of quick observations through, for what they may be worth...

The ANF and surrounding environs was my main beat for many years. I tend to agree with what Brown71 said about timing. Based on my experience, I'd say it is still a bit early. I also suspect that the nature of prevailing conditions were not favorable to your efforts. I think the year's low flows may have delayed the onset of the annual ramp-up to the spawn a bit in general and then last week's monsoons may have also had a delaying effect. I can recall years when this has happened and the fish seemed to "wait out" the spates and start a little later. Within the time limits of their biological imperatives, I think the trout are conditioned to "choose" the time slot that provides the best possible opportunity for spawning success. In this sense, your excursion may have been the victim of a double whammy brought on by longer term low flows and then, too much water.


I also agree to an extent with what Dave said about Ph, but I see this as a much more minor factor. Brown trout success in the ANF has always varied considerably by watershed, generally reliable in some and less so in others. But my take has always been that “reliable” in the ANF is a lot less, well, reliable than in for example, similar sized waters in the Potter/Cameron/Clinton Counties region. For whatever reason, wild BT pops in the ANF seem even more prone to the boom-bust cycle that is common to all small freestones. And while this would primarily be about resident smaller stream fish, I would imagine these are largely the same fish that would eventually find their way down to the Reservoir or one of the rivers. So, if the former is down, it would make sense to me that the latter would also be down. So, this may have added yet another layer to the above suggested larger “whammy”.. There may not be that many candidate fish of the type you are looking for, at last not right now. One, two or more years down the line, the story may be completely different based on year class success.


I also tend to think any conversation about fish “density” has to consider the huge number of potential choices spawning browns have in the ANF region. Even when we discount the 10% or so (a wild a—guess) of tribs with water too acidic or habitat too poor to support any spawning success, this still leaves literally hundreds of small direct tribs to the Reservoir or the Allegheny or Clarion where browns probably could successfully spawn. So we may have a pretty finite number of fish spread over a much less finite number of potential spawning opportunities. In this way, the entire thing becomes much more of potential needle in a haystack situation.

I’m way off into conjectureland now, so that’s enough out of me. Anyway, just a few thoughts….

 

[Zak]

I agree with Brown71. I also fish the same stream he does (much less frequently) and except for years where water levels are exceptional all fall there are very few fish that have made the run at this point. There have been years where there were a good number in October but as I said, flows were strong for a long period which allowed fish to trickle in and build up.

I dont think these small bodies of water have staging fish just dying to get into the creek. I dont think a big flush of water all of a sudden pushed fish like it it does in erie where there are 100's of thousands of fish wanting in. These places are more like dozens wanting in during the entire fall so you may not notice what or when it's happening. They come when they come later in the fall.

 

[FarmerDave]

RLeep2 wrote:

I also agree to an extent with what Dave said about Ph, but I see this as a much more minor factor. Brown trout success in the ANF has always varied considerably by watershed, generally reliable in some and less so in others. But my take has always been that “reliable” in the ANF is a lot less, well, reliable than in for example, similar sized waters in the Potter/Cameron/Clinton Counties region.

That is pretty much what I was getting at.

If I wanted to fish specifically for large lake or in this case river run browns on early spawning runs, the ANF would not be my first choice ... or second...

But if I was in the area and with limited time, I have a short list, probably similar to yours.;-)

We need to fish together some time.

BTW, if any of you have caught large browns or rainbows in Ross Run a few years back in the hole below the first culvert, they did come out of Tionesta Creek, but they had a little help. ;-)

 

[Brown71]

Rleep2, good post. I agree with all points.

Zak, also agree with your post. And like I said above, another stream I fish (river run, lots and lots of posted water) also has not got going yet. This is where I by far catch the most big browns.

I keep a very accurate notebook of all the days I catch these fish. If I have time later, I will post the timeframe and see when the majority were caught. I'm sure it is mostly November with some earlier and some later.

This particular stream has yielded 36 browns over 20" for me. I do know that number for sure. And 2 of the 3 biggest were definitely November.

 

[pcray1231]

salmonoid,

For the streams you fished, you may be mentally picturing a spawning run, similar to steelhead. Where they come up the stream, spawn, and head back down. I'm not so sure that's an accurate take on it.

The "run" of river run fish I've observed there can start anywhere from late May through July, depending on water temperatures in the river. Summer water temperature driven, not spawning behavior driven.

The question of residency time is a better one. Some may head back out in September as soon as water temps become suitable. Some may stay through spawning season. And others may stay FOREVER.

I have no doubt that biggest one you caught spent time in the river. I think Swattie's stocker probably did as well, though maybe not as long, and it's an open question on whether it was originally stocked in that stream or other nearby stocked streams.

As for how far. The answer is multiple miles, at least.

I have seen "runs" that are more clearly spawning behavior related, but not into the river itself, but rather into the large reservoir that river goes through. That's a short lived, late fall event. I've never put enough effort into it to say exactly how long it lasts. But the few times I have encountered them have been Decemberish if memory serves.

 

[salmonoid]

Thanks all for your responses.

Pat, I agree on your assessments of particular fish in a particular stream, but your answers all relate to thermal issues as the trigger. And my questions are about pre and post spawn behavior, although it may turn out that in marginal waters near even more marginal larger waters, thermal movement trumps spawn movement.

Not exactly a definitive answer, but at least related to PA fish, "Trout Movements on Delaware River System Tail-waters in New York State", by Scott Douglas Stanton adds a few data points. Larger fish there moved out the main stems of the Delaware from early October to late November and had spawning site stream residency of 2-32 days (probably an average of ten days, but with one outlier of 98 days excluded). I know nothing about the Delaware system, but that study provides some interesting insights into fish migration, because of thermal and spawning stimulus. Trying to track down the one reference to Arnold, Nichols and Bachman (Final Report 280 - Potadromous spawning migrations of brown trout with a case study from Pennsylvania). If anyone happens to know the stream used in the case study, it might make it worth my while to make a request to the library for a copy.

Would be great if some researcher took the same interest in the Allegheny and Clarion Rivers

 

[pcray1231]

Well, if ignoring thermally induced "runs", and speaking only to spawning induced runs, I think you have bring in genetics to that equation.

Look at the great lakes fisheries. For both steelhead and browns, it all started when they used to stock only salmon as intentionally lake run fish. But the streams were also getting a spring stockings of regular adult trout. A handful of which went out to the lake, a handful of which returned as lake run fish.

Well, over time, the salmon fishery declined due to commercial fishing and other issues. And people started noticing the trouts. So the various commissions switched gears.

They went and bought western steelhead strains. And NY also got a strain of brown trout that runs. These are fish that are genetically programmed to be travelers. They studied when to stock them, and at a certain size they "smolt" and imprint on the stream, so you gotta stock them prior to that if you expect to get a majority to return for a spawning run.

And even since then, Ohio stuck with a spring run strain of fish that really didn't get going until January-February time frame. PA originally had a fall run variety, that would begin to fall back by the time the Ohio's runs were starting!!! But PA then decided to make a mutt and crossed their strain with the Ohio strain. They also then began collecting eggs at various times of the year, figuring that if you collect from early run fish, they'll produce early run fish, and if you collect from late run fish, they'll produce late run fish. It worked! And PA now has a mutt strain of steelhead in which the first fish start staging in early September and more and more arrive rather continuously the whole way to April!!!! Of course they only get up the streams when flows are high enough and no ice blockages exist, but they're coming in from the lake at a relatively constant pace for about 6 months!!!! Interestingly, due to harvest, you actually reach an equilibrium where as many are being carried out on stringers as new arrivals, and the big trout populations in the tribs stay more or less constant from typically October through March (with little peaks and valleys based on rain events, and a complete lack of new arrivals for a month or so during ice blockages).

And heck, other lakes actually have summer run fish!

I honestly think a little genetic engineering and managing for spawning runs could be accomplished on more than just the great lakes. Large reservoirs like Kinzua and Raystown could probably do the same. Not to mention the finger lakes in NY, Champlain, etc. Even perhaps bigger rivers like the Allegheny, Lehigh, Delaware These are all places that get "runs", just like Erie used to get "runs" from it's standard adult stocked trout. But they could be greatly optimized to create a fishery. Perhaps even with natural reproduction and self sustainment of a strain of trout genetically programmed to "run".

Heck, even Pine Creek, the locals will tell you the old time fish were travelers. Perhaps water temp driven more than spawning. But in the Big Pine for much of the year and then the tribs at other times. And the while there's still fish around, and some travelling, there isn't the clearly track-able migrations like there used to be. Likely attributed to the original strain where that was a genetically programmed trait being either gone or at least greatly diluted.

But I do think fish movements, whether spawning or water temperature, is very much a function of genetics. The number of fish moving, the distance they move, and the timing of the move is a genetic thing and blanket statements just do not work.

 

[Brown71]

Ok, I dug out the notebook and did some stats on when Ive caught 20"+ browns out of this particular stream.

This stream gets some RIVER run fish, but also has what I would consider a good population of large resident fish, and lots and lots of posted stretches, which no doubt aids in harboring big trout.

I will admit, after going back over these records, I am even a little surprised by how many were caught in October, as opposed to November when I typically feel is best. Hope this is helpful to some:

Total Browns Caught From Stream x over 20" - 36

November - 17
October - 14
December - 2
January - 1
May - 1
September - 1

Conclusions - Obviously October and November far surpass the other months, although they are closer than I thought they'd be to eachother. It is unlikely that the fish caught in May or September were river run anyway, so probably disregard them. Even if a certain percent of these fish weren't river runs, in still gives an idea of when large trout are most active.

 

[Stenonema]

The ANF as far as I know has a lot of stocking on the big water and the fish there are from fingerlings. It sounds like that is what may be going on there. Trout that are going through the motions. I think what you should be looking for is populations of wild trout. A lot of the other questions that you asked will be answered on an individual population basis, from stream to stream the timing and other criteria will vary, most likely, the trout themselves may even look different. But if there are running wild browns, there will be some success in the form of YOY browns present throughout the season and there doesn't have to be a lot of them to make the stream worthwhile if you are willing to walk, which it sounds like you are.

 

[Chaz]

It all driven by three things, daylight, water temperature, and flows. No I was up to NC PA 3 weeks ago, and there was no water anywhere, and trout were just not motivated to move even to food, except in the last hours of light, or last hour of light.
Fast forward, last week NC PA and further west received 4 + inches of rain in 5 days. Flow increased and are still up, Temps have been fall like, and daylight is diminishing. There are general parameters to drive fall movement, like November first is about when it starts, it can be earlier, but not under the conditions we've had up there.
Trout movement is different for species and habits of individuals. Some big browns move into very small tribs, while you'll find other hanging near the mouths of creeks.

 

[steveo27]

I plan on heading up that way Saturday if I dont hunt. Theres a specific trib to the Clarion river that I wanna target. It not quite as far north as ANF, but Ive been wanting to fish the lower end of it for a while now. It supposedly hold wild browns, but Ive never caught any in it.

 

[geebee]

ANF ?

 

[troutbert]

geebee wrote:
ANF ?

Allegheny National Forest

 

[Chaz]

Once a fish moves from larger water into smaller water there are 2 things that make them stay, food and water temperature, I suppose I should qualify that by saying as much as temperature D.O. is the ultimate deterring factor. D.O. relates to temperature in that when temps. go up D.O. goes down. When Temps go down D.O. goes up. D.O is somewhat dependent on flows and or gradient.

 

[Seafood]

The OP questions are really good and I too am motivated in this direction of learning and future endeavors. While I do not have anything substantive to add about PA...

My best fishing buddy lives in Idaho in what is possibly the troutiest corner of our country. This time of year he targets fish on the move and with a purpose. Here is what I have learned by observing what he does...and brown71 is really on point as well.

1. More than anything...and I mean anything and everything...it takes TONS of TIME. My friend has an extremely flexible job and lifestyle and he has invested hundreds of hours on the water. Figuring things out. He will fish the same mile stretch of water on a Tuesday and then a Friday (for example) for 6 straight weeks to figure out its tendencies, differences at varying water levels, fish moving in and out, etc etc. He has 4 sections of water in 4 different rivers completely figured out.

The amount of time on the water also increases your odds of "stumbling on something" that is repeatable, knowable, etc. Hours on the water just cannot be replaced by anything.

I will never be able to duplicate this due to time constraints. If I fish the same spot twice throughout a season I am lucky.

2. Keep a journal. 20 years ago he and I started keeping a fishing journal. I gave up on it...he has done it religiously the entire time. You cannot underestimate the value of this data. Much like brown71 has shared.

I look forward to following this thread further into the fall. I think the data collected and shared could be interesting.