Requesting a stream be surveyed for Wild Trout

[jifigz]

This ties into our other threads currently going about wild trout, but has anyone requested a stream be surveyed for Wild Trout before? The other day I fished one of my favorite small streams around here as our larger waters were blown out. This stream is not Class A but it holds a lot of wild browns. I would like to request it be surveyed to see if it is Class A. Is the PFBC usually pretty good about following through with such requests? I'm going to call them and see what they say, but just thought I'd ask about your experiences if any of you have done this before..

 

[PennKev]

This stream is not Class A but it holds a lot of wild browns. I would like to request it be surveyed to see if it is Class A.

Is satisfying you curiosity worth the PAFBC potentially sport-burning your favorite stream?

For what it's worth, a few years back when the PAFBC was pushing to "find" wild trout streams and asked anglers to help suggest streams to survey, I sent in several suggestions that I new held wild fish. Only a couple ended up making it onto the wild trout listings. In retrospect I'm sort of glad that it happened that way.

 

[jifigz]

I should have been more specific in my initial post but didn't want to "spot burn" my stream on here. It's a stocked stream. It has a ton of wild browns. The only good thing about it being stocked is maybe landowners being more lenient of people on their land.

 

[silverfox]

Yes, and I'd say the answer depends. Interestingly, I just spoke with PFBC about this the other day and they were extremely interested in my specific case. It's a unique situation though and we're talking about brook trout in this instance. It's also a previously undocumented population/unsurveyed stream and it also likely has some additional conservation value to the agency.

In your case? I'm not so sure. Reach out to PFBC and try to get in touch with your local AFM.

In general regarding "spot burning", keep in mind that classification comes with protections through both PFBC and DEP. Those protections mean more than any short-lived increased angling pressure that may occur. We've got a lot of flowing waters in this state, and I personally find it hard to believe that a sudden rash of anglers would pursue this newly listed stream over the thousands of other options. Again, even if that happens, it would be a short-lived issue compared to the long-term protection the assumed increased classification would provide.

 

[sarce]

Back around 2012 or so I messaged Mike on here to discuss some wild trout (mostly brook trout) streams in SE PA that were unassessed. I don't remember who reached out to who initially to get that going but within a few years all of the streams I had reported had been sampled and listed. Since then one has lost its population and three others are suffering from continuing suburban expansion. It's possible that some of that may have been slowed down had the streams been listed earlier, though that is probably wishful thinking as it sure isn't slowing down development now.

 

[PennKev]

silverfox wrote:
We've got a lot of flowing waters in this state, and I personally find it hard to believe that a sudden rash of anglers would pursue this newly listed stream over the thousands of other options.

It really depends on the area of the state the stream is located in. I have only one official Class A water near me and it has gotten the living daylights pounded out of it since the PAFBC published the Class A list online years ago.

 

[Mike]

As others have said, contact the AFM. Based on my experiences and past approach, I recommend that you state that it is a stocked trout section with wild trout in high numbers. Do not state that it IS a Class A equivalent, as that kind of firm statement based on a fishing rod assessment has a good chance of ruining your credibility. A better way to say that is that it fishes like some other Class A’s that you fish, most similarly to x, y, or z stream with which the AFM may also familiar. If your long time experience with the stream, if you have had such experience, such as 10 yrs, tells you that the wild trout population has apparently improved very substantially, that will be worth mentioning as well. Don’t stretch the truth. If a crew spends the time and $ to go out there and the population isn’t even close to what you represented, your cred will be lost.

Sampling schedules are already set for the year, based on the past, but reporting it now wouldn’t hurt as on occasion I found time while in a given geographical area to take a look at a water that had not been on the schedule that year. It certainly doesn’t hurt to discuss the stream with the regional AFM now. Finding Class A’s was a stated priority for the staff the year that I retired (2019) and it would not surprise me if that is still the case.

 

[jifigz]

Mike, I will PM you with information regarding the stream to discuss further.

I'm not worried about it being fished once listed as Class A. In fact, think it will be fished even less. It is nearby 4 other small streams that are all Class A and I've never seen another angler on any of them. Two of the streams were stocked when I was younger but now none are. I think the Class A equivalency is very dependent upon time of the year that it is surveyed in this instance..without saying more you probably won't understand. I will see what Mike replies with to see if my assumption makes any sense..

Just for the record. I've been fishing it hard for about 5 years. One day in autumn I went there and caught a lot of wild browns on dry flies. That piqued my interest and I kept going back. I've had days where you swear there aren't trout there, but other days you get takes in all the right places. It is my favorite small streams around. I'll post some pics from two days ago.

 

[jifigz]

Another forum member asked my opinion of this stream years ago and I politely gave him my impression..I love it, plenty to wild fish, they are usually willing to eat something, etc..here are some pics.

 

[troutbert]

You said it's not on the Class A list, but is it on the wild trout (natural reproduction) list?

If it's on that list, then they have surveyed it. The list is on their website.

Several times I have contacted the PFBC about streams where I found wild trout, but that were not on the natural reproduction list.

They did survey them, and they are now on the wild trout list.

 

[jifigz]

It is on the natural reproduction list. What we don't know is when it was surveyed, what time of the year, etc. It could have been done quite a long time ago and not met the criteria then but may now. It also could have not been certified so it could continue to be stocked and not be another exemption in the state of stocking a Class A (and that isn't right!)

I'm trying to look out for the streams I love and help protect them in any way that I can. From years of fishing experience on this stream and others nearby, all I can say is that if the other nearby streams are Class A I have no idea how this one isn't.

 

[jifigz]

Look at the PFBC definitions of some key words here. Also, stream classification began I'm 1982. So, this stream may have been surveyed 30 years or more ago and a lot can change in that time. Just because it is "natural reproduction" now doesn't mean that it can't now meet the "Class A" limit.

 

[Mike]

Glad to see that someone is putting my archived presentation on the history of trout management in Pa to good use. Those particular slides are pertinent to what has been discussed in the past week or so here in various threads. The 5 th one is particularly pertinent. The 6th is a repeat of the first only because of your screen shot....no big deal. You could have started an interesting, separate thread with those slides.

 

[silverfox]

jifigz wrote:
Look at the PFBC definitions of some key words here. Also, stream classification began I'm 1982. So, this stream may have been surveyed 30 years or more ago and a lot can change in that time. Just because it is "natural reproduction" now doesn't mean that it can't now meet the "Class A" limit.

This is why I said in the other thread that they (PFBC) need more AFM's or more biologists or more partners certified to sample. There are too many miles of stream to actively monitor for populations. I'm sure there are Class A's that are now Class B's, Class B's that are now Class A's, and that's not even getting into the quagmire of seasonal sample variation due to migration.

One frustration I have here is that we've got guys who are qualified and willing to get certified and we would consider buying the gear to do it, but PFBC is so hard to reach and rarely responds to anything so I don't even know how to go about getting certified as a UAW or sampling partner. Frankly, I've gotten the impression that they don't want outside help. I'm talking about back when I used to try playing nice with PFBC. Before I started tossing grenades in their lap. That only happened out of frustration.

 

[lycoflyfisher]

Lots of consultant's, non profits and academic institutions have the scientific collectors permits that are necessary to conduct biological surveys in PA. There are different levels of these permits depending on the sampling you wish to conduct. From my experience in the Unassessed waters program, you would need a biology and or fisheries degree along with some level of professional training to obtain a scientific collector's permit. In my time in the UAW program only academic and non profit research/ conservation organizations participated in that program. I can't speak for PFBC, but given the regulatory implications of a wild trout designation I can understand why it may be difficult to trust individuals who may want to conduct fisheries surveys on their own.

 

[silverfox]

lycoflyfisher wrote:
Lots of consultant's, non profits and academic institutions have the scientific collectors permits that are necessary to conduct biological surveys in PA. There are different levels of these permits depending on the sampling you wish to conduct. From my experience in the Unassessed waters program, you would need a biology and or fisheries degree along with some level of professional training to obtain a scientific collector's permit. In my time in the UAW program only academic and non profit research/ conservation organizations participated in that program. I can't speak for PFBC, but given the regulatory implications of a wild trout designation I can understand why it may be difficult to trust individuals who may want to conduct fisheries surveys on their own.

Just to clarify, I'm talking about a 501c3 nonprofit conservation organization and qualified individuals.

 

[lycoflyfisher]

Qualified as in having an appropriate academic background and formal electrofishing training? If so go for it, if your group doesn't have the qualifications to lead surveys of this nature why not partner with an academic group? Many of the local universities partner with watershed groups, tu chapters, non profits etc to do monitoring.

 

[silverfox]

lycoflyfisher wrote:
Qualified as in having an appropriate academic background and formal electrofishing training? If so go for it, if your group doesn't have the qualifications to lead surveys of this nature why not partner with an academic group? Many of the local universities partner with watershed groups, tu chapters, non profits etc to do monitoring.

Right, the e-fishing training and equipment are the only missing pieces. Again, we would be willing to do that if there is an interest. I'll admit that like I mentioned earlier, where we did identify an undocumented population, PFBC staff were very responsive to surveying it for us. Also, to be fair, I've only offered our involvement in UAW in passing and haven't pushed the issue because we've been very busy with other work. If you have any contacts that we could talk to I'd appreciate it. You can PM me if you don't want to post them publicly.

 

[keirns4]

Funny you don't want to "spot burn" this stream so people don't know what stream you are talking about but you have no problem posting stream pictures, fish pictures, and stream names of Class A streams (Tea, Honey, and another near State College).

 

[jifigz]

keirns4 wrote:
Funny you don't want to "spot burn" this stream so people don't know what stream you are talking about but you have no problem posting stream pictures, fish pictures, and stream names of Class A streams (Tea, Honey, and another near State College).

Am I being criticized for providing stream reports? I am not sure how you can "spot burn" a Class A stream.....it is literally on a list viewable of anyone stating that "hey, wild trout are here!" And it doesn't really matter, most people don't care about fishing those streams. They aren't secrets.

If this one were to be classified Class A it would not be a secret either. And it already isn't, there are other forum members that know and have fished this stream. Forum members have asked me about it before and I've given them my opinion of it. I'm not into lying or trying to keep a place to myself. I'm happy to share knowledge and help others learn. "Secrets" don't always stay well protected. Streams with friends have a much better chance.

Thanks for your very thoughtful and productive input on the topic.