Raystown spillway....

[GANGGREEN]

I know that the PFBC had intended to try to turn the tailwaters into a 12-month tailwater fishery for trout. Does anyone know how that project is going? Are they really taking deep water discharges and is the river staying cool enough to support trout all summer or is it the typical bathwater that I remember? I grew up on the Raystown Branch and to this day occasionally fish it for Smallmouth, but I'd definitely take the time to go down once or twice per year if I thought it really would develop into a decent coldwater fishery. Just curious if anyone fishes it past May or if the fish are holding in there at all.

Are the trout right up at the spillway, down around Corbin's island or are they spreading out downstream at all? For what it's worth, as a child growing up, I remember Fred Corbin and his wife and they were very nice people. I'm not sure the family has that place at all anymore.

 

[troutbert]

People advocated that, and it was discussed, but I'm pretty sure the flow regimes were never changed.

I don't think the PFBC every decided they wanted that.

And even if the PFBC decided they wanted that, it's an Army Corps of Engineers dam, so they are the "deciders" not the PFBC.

As I understand it, the earlier Corps dams often went with cold tailwater management, and on those dams that management is grandfathered in.

But at some point they decided the dams should not have a thermal impact, but should strive to have water temperatures coming out of the dam similar to water temperatures in the rive above the lake.

 

[silverfox]

I know that the PFBC had intended to try to turn the tailwaters into a 12-month tailwater fishery for trout. Does anyone know how that project is going? Are they really taking deep water discharges and is the river staying cool enough to support trout all summer or is it the typical bathwater that I remember? I grew up on the Raystown Branch and to this day occasionally fish it for Smallmouth, but I'd definitely take the time to go down once or twice per year if I thought it really would develop into a decent coldwater fishery. Just curious if anyone fishes it past May or if the fish are holding in there at all.

Are the trout right up at the spillway, down around Corbin's island or are they spreading out downstream at all? For what it's worth, as a child growing up, I remember Fred Corbin and his wife and they were very nice people. I'm not sure the family has that place at all anymore.

There was no mention of this in the most recent master plan revision last year: https://www.nab.usace.army.mil/raystown-master-plan-revision/

I'm not sure the 6 miles of flat shallow riffles below the tailrace would a very good trout fishery anyway.

 

[GANGGREEN]

Interesting. I think there's enough deeper water, big rocks, etc. to make it an acceptable trout fishery and there is a good bit of food there. Because it's a short stretch of river, I can't imagine that cooler water temperatures would impact the Juniata or the Susquehanna either, but I guess there's something to be said for keeping it as natural as possible and as close to what it was historically. I fished it a lot as a kid and still occasionally fish it to this day and summertime water temperatures really are bath water.

There was no mention of this in the most recent master plan revision last year: https://www.nab.usace.army.mil/raystown-master-plan-revision/

I'm not sure the 6 miles of flat shallow riffles below the tailrace would a very good trout fishery anyway.

 

[Wild_Trouter]

^The muskies, stripers, and bass that are there would love an injection of stocked trout. I agree w/Silverfox...you would definitely need to do some major stream improvement there (not that it can't be done, but $$$). Kentucky's "Hatchery Creek" comes to mind here for what I'm thinking:

 

[GANGGREEN]

You're probably right, but I believe there already are some spring trout releases up by the spillway. How many of them are caught by anglers, how many are eaten by predators and how many just die naturally is obviously unknown to me.

 

[Swattie87]

But at some point they decided the dams should not have a thermal impact, but should strive to have water temperatures coming out of the dam similar to water temperatures in the rive above the lake.

Does the dam currently release a mix of water (spillway and bottom release) to mimic the incoming temp? If not, an impoundment the size of Raystown will result in much warmer water leaving than entering in the Summer. Assuming a full top release via spillway.

I’d argue that’s already an impact. IIRC high water temps (above 90F) played at least a partial role in the SMB issues in the Susky.

 

[silverfox]

Does the dam currently release a mix of water (spillway and bottom release) to mimic the incoming temp? If not, an impoundment the size of Raystown will result in much warmer water leaving than entering in the Summer. Assuming a full top release via spillway.

I’d argue that’s already an impact. IIRC high water temps (above 90F) played at least a partial role in the SMB issues in the Susky.

Yes they do mix outflow from the warm water discharge system, but I don't think it was designed for coldwater. The coldwater outlet is the tunnel to the east of the spillways. They only use that gate for drawdowns for maintenance etc (i.e. designed to drain the lake below the other gates). I don't think that lower gate was designed for continual use or for fine control of the volume to mix the discharge to hit a desired temperature. That's not to say that it couldn't be modified to function that way, but that's getting into some $$$$.

 

[troutbert]

At both Kinzua Dam and Sayers Dam (on Bald Eagle Creek) they deliberately mix to approximate the temperate of the inflow water. I know this because I called the Army Corps of Engineers and asked them.

On Bald Eagle Creek I've taken temperatures on Bald Eagle Creek below the dam spillway and at the last access above the dam in hot summer weather and the water temperatures are in fact very close.

I never spoke to them at Raystown, but I'm pretty sure I heard during the tailwaters discussions that they do the same there.

 

[lycoflyfisher]

Troutbert, you can watch the usgs gauge on Bald Eagle just below Sayers for a pretty accurate twmp reading as well.

 

[NittanyBearcat]

To the best of my knowledge nothing has changed with the release at the Raystown Spillway to convert it to bottom release only. They do stock trout once a year from the spillway to Corbins island, but I wouldn’t say there are a lot of trout in that stretch. It does provide some excellent smallmouth fishing though.

 

[Sylvaneous]

At both Kinzua Dam and Sayers Dam (on Bald Eagle Creek) they deliberately mix to approximate the temperate of the inflow water. I know this because I called the Army Corps of Engineers and asked them.

Yes, and that aggrivates me. They could just use what they have and make the water in the low to mid 60's in the summer and BAM! invent a major $$$ industry. Watch all the trust fund babies, You-Tuber wanna-be's and "Richard from Houston" types show up after the 1st published article. 20" rainbows eating brown drakes and Isnoychias in Warren County. I'd endure some 'Richards from Houston" for that.

 

[troutbert]

Yes, and that aggrivates me. They could just use what they have and make the water in the low to mid 60's in the summer and BAM! invent a major $$$ industry. Watch all the trust fund babies, You-Tuber wanna-be's and "Richard from Houston" types show up after the 1st published article. 20" rainbows eating brown drakes and Isnoychias in Warren County. I'd endure some 'Richards from Houston" for that.

What is the "Richard from Houston" reference?

 

[pcray1231]

Kinzua Dam already has a pretty good tailwater trout fishery. But yeah, they could extend that a lot!

 

[goose54cdd]

^The muskies, stripers, and bass that are there would love an injection of stocked trout. I agree w/Silverfox...you would definitely need to do some major stream improvement there (not that it can't be done, but $$$). Kentucky's "Hatchery Creek" comes to mind here for what I'm thinking:

What a great accomplishment. Congrats to Kentucky.

 

[silverfox]

One thing to consider about this is the impact to anglers who don't trout fish. The tailwater already sees angling use. Likely not as much as it would if it were a coldwater trout tailwater, but then the Quemahoning tailwater hasn't turned into the Madison of the east either. So the anglers who currently use the tailwater for bass, musky, catfish, etc. are all displaced in pursuit of a coldwater fishery that may not really work out that well in the end.

These systems also require constant stocking as natural reproduction would likely be poor to nonexistent at Raystown in the short tailwater stretch. Similar to the Yough. So where a fishery currently already exists through either escapee through the lake, or naturally from the Juniata proper, it would now need constant fish supply maintenance to exist as a trout fishery. In other words, right now the tailwater is a fishery with little to no added cost, but if converted to a coldwater tailwater would incur significant costs to maintain.

 

[Dave_W]

We had a discussion of this issue off and on about a decade ago when the idea was first floated.

The PFBC actually started the issue by raising the question of converting some dams to bottom release. Raystown was one of them. However, the issue was mostly not pursued, I suspect mostly due to lack of funding, lack of interest by ACE, and due to lack of enthusiasm internally in the PFBC for such efforts broadly, and the Raystown Branch in particular.

As much as I love the Juniata River as a warm water fishery, I think cold releases from Raystown to be intriguing and worth a try.

 

[GANGGREEN]

We had a discussion of this issue off and on about a decade ago when the idea was first floated.

The PFBC actually started the issue by raising the question of converting some dams to bottom release. Raystown was one of them. However, the issue was mostly not pursued, I suspect mostly due to lack of funding, lack of interest by ACE, and due to lack of enthusiasm internally in the PFBC for such efforts broadly, and the Raystown Branch in particular.

As much as I love the Juniata River as a warm water fishery, I think cold releases from Raystown to be intriguing and worth a try.

I spent a ton of time along the branch below the dam as a child and as a teenager. I still fish there occasionally and my aunt and uncle still have a farm along the branch, which I'd love to purchase at some point and retire to. I have to agree with you though, as much as I've enjoyed the warm water fishery there for the last 50 years, it might be interesting if it truly was a good tailwater fishery.

 

[PennKev]

They could just use what they have and make the water in the low to mid 60's in the summer and BAM! invent a major $$$ industry.

So we're at the point where fly anglers **** on the PAFBC for stocking over wild fish because it is financially motivated, but we can advocate potentially destroying an established high quality warm/cool water fishery in the Allegheny because.... ...money?

Lol.

That's rich.

 

[RLeep2]

I'm kinda with Kev on this, if I understand him correctly. The only flow changes I could get behind so far as Kinzua is concerned would be the removal of the dam... Otherwise, if it is going to remain a fact of life (which of course it will), don't mess with it any more than we already have.