Public \ Posted Stream Etiquette

mute

mute

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Montco
So while starting to explore all the blue lines in my area - starting with the ones listed as Class A \ Wild Trout Populations it has occurred to me that there's so little public percentage of those streams available. So that leaves me to two questions.

1. What is everyone's process to obtaining access to specific access points of creeks that you goto that are posted? Knock knock, hell may i fish your property?

2. On the small percnetages of access \ creek bed that is on publicly owned land, how do you actually find those areas? From what I can tell on the Arcgis maps they dont articulate where that 5% of public owned sections are, unless im missing something?

 
I typically avoid the posted headaches by fishing on public land. State/National Forests, State Game Lands, State/County parks, or Conservancies that clearly state on their website they allow public fishing.

Google Maps has a lot of these areas parceled out, but it’s not always exactly accurate. There are very detailed NF/SF and SGL maps available online. Cross reference those with the fish commission lists to find your stream sections on public land you want to fish.

As far as posted land, you need permission to access it. Period. You’ll need to locate the landowner and get permission. Kind of a pain in the butt, as the landowner may be a remote landowner who doesn’t actually live on or near the property you’re accessing. Or, they may rent to a tenant who doesn’t have authority to give you permission.

Why I try to avoid this mess and stick to public land. There’s plenty of options out there, to the point you’d never get bored. Don’t limit yourself to just Class A’s, hint hint.
 
Class A’s on public land in SE Pa are really very limited. I could probably name all of them off the top of my head with just a little thought, and just for clarification, I am excluding the Lehigh Valley from this because there are a number of A’s there that are on public land. As mentioned above, I would not hesitate to fish Class B’s either and even a few C’s if they were medium width to wider streams. For example, a wider B or C stream may have just as many or more legal size fish per mile as a narrower Class A and because of its possible habitat differences, may have larger fish as well. The fact is, however, that there are not many Class B’s in SE Pa. As a general rule of thumb, if it’s not an A in SE Pa it is probably a C or a D.

There is a “new” Class B in SE Pa that might interest you. A recent survey of the Bear Ck, Schuylkill Co DHALO Area revealed that since 1988, the year of its last survey, the stream section has gone from a weak ClassD (as I recall) to a high Class B at 37 kg/ha, just three kg away from Class A for a wild Brown Trout population. This despite being heavily stocked in the DH program ( I add that to once again point out that if competition from stocked trout were such a problem, these wild trout populations in DH stream sections that are very heavily stocked would not be expanding. A much better argument when stocking over wild trout would be that harvest via by-catch of wild trout is problematic, but these days, in comparison to three decades ago, that may not be much of a real concern anyway due to the prevalence of C&R fishing across the board, reduced fishing pressure other than perhaps the 2020 anomaly, and the very substantially increased use of RT in stockings).
 
Somewhat related question: Can you fish a Class A stream that goes through private land if it isn't posted?
 
Private land is private land.... if you want access, out of respect for the landowner ask permission! The classification of trout stream holds no bearing on public accessibility.
 
FWIW - I always do my asking AFTER deer hunting season as many landowners start posting in earnest just before, as they seem to be less tolerant of hunting than fishing.

They just seem to be in a better mood then.

Also keep in mind, if you cop an attitude by your actions and ruin it for yourself, you most likely will ruin it for everybody else too...
 
Generally if not posted I go ahead and fish. Of course I would not go walking through someones yard. Also not going to enter places that are fenced without asking. That has been my way of doing things for many years with very few problems. I rarely fish any of the trickles but recall asking a landowner once and he almost laughed at me wanting to fish for tiny fish like that. On the bigger streams and rivers I fish as long as I am staying in the water and accessed it legally in the first place. I had a guy try to stop me from fishing the Susquehanna one time even though I was wading along in front of his house. As for asking for permission it has had mixed results for me but if I have time I do try.
 
Mike wrote:
Class A’s on public land in SE Pa are really very limited. I could probably name all of them off the top of my head with just a little thought, and just for clarification, I am excluding the Lehigh Valley from this because there are a number of A’s there that are on public land. As mentioned above, I would not hesitate to fish Class B’s either and even a few C’s if they were medium width to wider streams. For example, a wider B or C stream may have just as many or more legal size fish per mile as a narrower Class A and because of its possible habitat differences, may have larger fish as well. The fact is, however, that there are not many Class B’s in SE Pa. As a general rule of thumb, if it’s not an A in SE Pa it is probably a C or a D.

There is a “new” Class B in SE Pa that might interest you. A recent survey of the Bear Ck, Schuylkill Co DHALO Area revealed that since 1988, the year of its last survey, the stream section has gone from a weak ClassD (as I recall) to a high Class B at 37 kg/ha, just three kg away from Class A for a wild Brown Trout population. This despite being heavily stocked in the DH program ( I add that to once again point out that if competition from stocked trout were such a problem, these wild trout populations in DH stream sections that are very heavily stocked would not be expanding. A much better argument when stocking over wild trout would be that harvest via by-catch of wild trout is problematic, but these days, in comparison to three decades ago, that may not be much of a real concern anyway due to the prevalence of C&R fishing across the board, reduced fishing pressure other than perhaps the 2020 anomaly, and the very substantially increased use of RT in stockings).
Click to expand...


Thanks for the Info Mike. What exactly are Class B,C,D waters? Ive never heard of them. I thought here were Class A > Natural reproduction > wilderness.

As for Bear creek as a good example waterway to check out. That comes back to my same non-understanding. Bear creek shows as 8 miles long, with 5% of it on public land. That means not even half of a mile of it apparently would be accessible. How am i supposed to know where that half of a mile stretch is out of hte 8mile stretch? Assuming its even one whole half miles and 1 quarter of a peice here then a mile away is another little 200 yards worth, etc.
 
Swattie87 wrote:
I typically avoid the posted headaches by fishing on public land. State/National Forests, State Game Lands, State/County parks, or Conservancies that clearly state on their website they allow public fishing.

Google Maps has a lot of these areas parceled out, but it’s not always exactly accurate. There are very detailed NF/SF and SGL maps available online. Cross reference those with the fish commission lists to find your stream sections on public land you want to fish.

As far as posted land, you need permission to access it. Period. You’ll need to locate the landowner and get permission. Kind of a pain in the butt, as the landowner may be a remote landowner who doesn’t actually live on or near the property you’re accessing. Or, they may rent to a tenant who doesn’t have authority to give you permission.

Why I try to avoid this mess and stick to public land. There’s plenty of options out there, to the point you’d never get bored. Don’t limit yourself to just Class A’s, hint hint.
Click to expand...

You always give quality responses, thanks. But even if i look off the Natural repro list instead of Class A's the same problem exists. Unless youre saying look on all of the lists, but only focus on obvious public access areas in the first place, ex: SGL, Forest, Parks, etc and not urban areas?
 
mute wrote:
You always give quality responses, thanks. But even if i look off the Natural repro list instead of Class A's the same problem exists. Unless youre saying look on all of the lists, but only focus on obvious public access areas in the first place, ex: SGL, Forest, Parks, etc and not urban areas?
Click to expand...

Sort of, yeah. I typically work in the inverse direction. I look at the maps of public land first (SF and SGL most frequently) so I know I’m looking in places where I won’t have private land issues to start with. When I find a stream that looks appetizing on the map, I then use the lists to gather more information about it. The lists are great, but don’t be tied to them too close.
 
I would say that in the case of Bear Creek, its UNT having an exploding population of wild brook trout and increasing water quality in the basin had more to do with high numbers of wild trout DESPITE stocking.
That is all
 
The Class A trib’s wild Brook Trout population, which has been around for decades, doesn’t have anything to do the Brown Trout population in Bear Ck., Section 03, the DH Area. Water quality is unlikely to have anything to do with it; the basin has been in its present state for decades.

As with the vast majority of improvements in wild trout populations in SE Pa the primary factor has most likely been improvement in water temps. That is what had been limiting the development of a reproducing trout population and even the holdover of stocked trout in that DH Area ever since its conception in the late 1980’s per my investigations then and when it was a general stocked section in the 1970’s per my predecessor’s investigation. Likewise that has been an ongoing challenge in Section 02, which is immediately upstream and was last investigated by me a little over a decade ago.
 
Mute,
Bear Ck has a regular state stocked trout section and a second section that is a delayed harvest area. The stocked trout and DH sections of all streams are shown on the PFBC web site maps often discussed here. When stocking schedules are shown on the same web site, the stocked trout section limits are delineated on a map with a click or two. DH sections and normal stocked sections are supposed to have a minimum of 25% of their riparian lands open to public fishing. The vast majority probably have at least 85% open. Many have 95% or more open to public fishing.

If more than five percent of a section is posted, the section begins to pay a penalty via a corresponding percentage reduction in stocked trout numbers up to fifteen percent of riparian land posting. Over fifteen percent posting results in a major cut to the stocked trout numbers and a reduction to a single stocking per year. Over 25% posting results in removal from the program.

Posted stretches of stocked streams where fishing is permitted are also supposed to be posted with PFBC “fishing permitted” signs at each end of the posted property and sometimes in the middle, but sometimes they run out of those signs and approved trout water or other PFBC signs are posted along with the landowner’s no trespassing signs. You usually do not find posting against trespassing in DH Areas and in my experience, if you do, it is a short stretch. A salient point is that just because a section is stocked, it does not mean that the entire section is open to public fishing, but most of it should be unless posting is recent and has been undetected or unattended to as of yet by agency staff.

As for stream Biomass classifications, you should read about those in the trout plan on the PFBC web site.
 
Water Quality.
Nothing to do with brown or brook
*shurgs*

Why recommend it to go to HQ CWF in 2012 then?
 
To protect already existing uses.

It is a pro forma recommendation for Class A stream sections designed to remind agency officials to move the report through the special protection process within the PFBC and Pa DEP as well as educate others who might read the report. All Class A sections are to be classified HQ as a minimum. They qualify for HQ based on wild trout biomass.



 
Yep.

I bet all those wild trout and stock trout dont eat pellets either. ;-)
A stream can only hold what life it can support. That water is improving not just because of the fish, it is the entire chain.
 
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