Public or Private?

[Coontail77]

I’m sure this topic has been thoroughly gone over with a fine toothed comb a thousand times, but I would like to share my experience and ask for anyone else to give their opinion and same experiences.

Last night I was on Fishing Creek in Columbia County, I walked to the stream from the road on a public easement that’s managed by a local sportsmens association that opens the waters to the public. Downstream was a little choppy so I fished my way upstream. I made it to a series of riffles, standing in the middle of the creek and the downstream side of a nice hole. That’s when I noticed posted signs on both sides of the stream at a landowners property line. The landowner watched me fish, and after a non-confrontational introduction he informed me I wasn’t allowed to fish any more upstream as he privately stocks the stretch of water that runs through his property and to make my way downstream. I was obviously very nice and cooperative and made my way downstream to exit legally onto the bank where the easement leads to the stream, which is where I entered the stream as well.

My question being, legally, was I in the wrong to make my way upstream and put myself in the situation with a landowner? Or does a fisherman who enters a public waterway legally have the right to fish the water as long as they didn’t trespass, and stayed in the water below the highwater mark. Thanks for any shared experiences, opinions, or advice.

Tight lines, and see you on the stream!

 

[bigjohn358]

I doubt that Fishing Creek in Columbia County is navigable by boat. I believe it has to be navigable by boat to consider the water way public in PA. The land owner technically owns the land under the water if he owns both sides of the creek. Thats just how I always understood the laws about private land. I'd fish up to the posted signs and then get out of there.

 

[jifigz]

I doubt that Fishing Creek in Columbia County is navigable by boat. I believe it has to be navigable by boat to consider the water way public in PA. The land owner technically owns the land under the water if he owns both sides of the creek. Thats just how I always understood the laws about private land. I'd fish up to the posted signs and then get out of there.

Yeah, I agree with bigjohn.....and in my opinion it sucks, but he is right. I wish we could change it but whatever.

Him privately stocking is another crappy scenario also.

 

[CRB]

Yeah, I agree with bigjohn.....and in my opinion it sucks, but he is right. I wish we could change it but whatever.

Him privately stocking is another crappy scenario also.

Get used to it more signs will go up.
A lot of private land is open due to PAFBC stocking. Less stocking will result in less waters open to fisherman.

 

[afishinado]

This topic has been discussed on here many times.

Here is one such discussion >

Wading in Posted Water

I know that the topic of wading in waters that are posted has been hashed out here more than once. Please help me understand and correct me if I am wrong. One can wade in PA waters as long as you are in the water (below the high water mark). Correct? The water has to be "navigable"? What...

www.paflyfish.com

 

[FarmerDave]

I doubt that Fishing Creek in Columbia County is navigable by boat. I believe it has to be navigable by boat to consider the water way public in PA. The land owner technically owns the land under the water if he owns both sides of the creek. Thats just how I always understood the laws about private land. I'd fish up to the posted signs and then get out of there.

Although this is great advice... Technically speaking, I don't think the words "by boat" is actually used in the determination of navigability.

I don't remember the exact words, but here is a rule of thumb that I use. If you can prove that the stream was used for commerce in the past, then one could have a case for it being navigable. This likely would include using said stream to float logs of lumber. to market. And it does not have to be the entire stream, or need to be continuously navigable, either.

But here is the kicker. If one pushed the issue, it would likely need to be settled in court.

So, I completely agree with bighohn's advice.

 

[jifigz]

Get used to it more signs will go up.
A lot of private land is open due to PAFBC stocking. Less stocking will result in less waters open to fisherman.

I agree. It is one reason why I love some of my favorite wild trout streams being stocked. Stocking definitely helps maintain open water....even though it comes with trash, disrespect, etc etc.

 

[Fish Sticks]

Get used to it more signs will go up.
A lot of private land is open due to PAFBC stocking. Less stocking will result in less waters open to fisherman.

Your absolutely right about the postings and stocked trout. This is something I continually bring up. Game comission gave us SGL’s where some of our best small and big water fishing is, DCNR gave us state parks, wild areas, and state forests(they just bought two kore state parks by the way this year).

PFBC largely just focuses on fish production for anglers to compete for in crowded space and the risk there in my opinion is who is looking out for the future of this sport and our outdoor traditions. That 27.5 million dollar grant they wasted on hatcheries in 2020 could have bough alot of real estate especially in FEMA flood zones vital to ecological health and stream access but useless to developers.

I regularly see 100 or 150 acres in wild areas of PA boasting “2 miles total” of trout stream for less than 100 thousand dollars!!!

PFBC just gave potter county anglers coop hatchery around 65 thousand just to make their hatchery meet great lakes compliance!!

Trout hatchery program was 13mill a year in 2009. With inflation oil prices ect what is it now 15, 20 million a year??

If that money was used for access instead of a couple week fishery we wouldn’t have to worry about these fickle access agreements with landowners, conflicts, and vague stream access laws nearly as much most likely (even if navigable up to judge is my understanding).

My 2 cents

 

[troutbert]

I regularly see 100 or 150 acres in wild areas of PA boasting “2 miles total” of trout stream for less than 100 thousand dollars!!!

Can you post some examples of this?

That sounds WAY low.

 

[Roofin' Trouter]

I regularly see 100 or 150 acres in wild areas of PA boasting “2 miles total” of trout stream for less than 100 thousand dollars!!!

Which counties do you regularly look in? I look at land/ houses in Elk, Jefferson,Tioga, Clearfield, McKean,Cameron, and Potter Counties pretty much every day and don't come across deals like that.
For instance, for a 112 acre property that borders Freeman Run for 100yd approx , they are currently asking $336,000.[QUOTE="troutbert, post: 933517, member: 26
That sounds WAY low.
[/QUOTE]
It is way low or I'm looking in the wrong places.

 

[lycoflyfisher]

I regularly see 100 or 150 acres in wild areas of PA boasting “2 miles total” of trout stream for less than 100 thousand dollars!!!

Examples please, I and many others would buy at that price all day!

Heck mountain ground on sidehills with no existing infrastructure is being listed often times at 3-5 grand an acre.

 

[coyoterahn]

I regularly see 100 or 150 acres in wild areas of PA boasting “2 miles total” of trout stream for less than 100 thousand dollars!!!

I too would be interested in see these properties.

 

[Coontail77]

I think more money needs to go to water access. There is a lot of acreage available to the public with a small amount of research being needed, with SGL and State Forest land. But as far as navigating current access to local fisheries especially here in the northeast and north central region, there should be more, or at the very least have a gin clear definition of exactly what fisheries are navigable and which are not. Navigability is defined as being able to support commerce on a specified waterway at the admission of statehood. As far as my understanding goes, it has always been that way, but who knows which waterways are navigable!? What a damn conundrum. Time for a beer!

 

[FarmerDave]

Examples please, I and many others would buy at that price all day!

Count me in.

 

[Fish Sticks]

So Those prices were when I was looking for my current home for 2 years straight on Zillow MLS other sites ext. This was before before the recent real estate boom and city employees moving to the boonies to work remote. I just checked your right it’s gotten more expensive but that 27.5 million dollars could still go a LONG way, look at these properties and think about how much land they would only use up like 1 million dollars of 27.5. And annually we spend over 13 million at minimum on hatchery trout at this point imagine what that could have done yearly for past ten years.

Everyones elbows will keep getting closer and closer together during trout season as we combat fish for the same rubber trout between shrinking amount of non posted/purple paint access points.

Their making new houses, their not maijng new streams. PFBC has some serious lack of foresight.

 

[salmo]

All of the answers about posting and river access are correct for Pennsylvania. Some states take the position that all riparian areas create an easement in favor of the state. If you keep below the mean high water mark you can fish.

 

[CRB]

What is needed is an access fund. Up here in Erie county we fought the state for permanent easements instead of out right purchases. Every time there is a recession more stream easements are added. New York's access program has been around for almost 100 year and you can see the positives that have come out of that program.

 

[silverfox]

Speaking of properties on trout streams… I wish someone would buy this and tear the mill pond out and restore the lakebed to a stream.

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/...ssage&utm_medium=referral&utm_source=txtshare

Also, we lost a good 300 yard section on yellow creek a few years ago for about $60,000 if I recall correctly. Worthless property otherwise. Someone from out of state bought it and promptly posted every tree.

 

[jifigz]

Speaking of properties on trout streams… I wish someone would buy this and tear the mill pond out and restore the lakebed to a stream.

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/...ssage&utm_medium=referral&utm_source=txtshareView attachment 1641229686

Also, we lost a good 300 yard section on yellow creek a few years ago for about $60,000 if I recall correctly. Worthless property otherwise. Someone from out of state bought it and promptly posted every tree.

I'm not familiar with Yellow Creek (never fished it, but I know about it) but after looking at a map it looks like there are 3 impoundments on the upper section. Yikes. Home waters has water there too, right?

 

[silverfox]

I'm not familiar with Yellow Creek (never fished it, but I know about it) but after looking at a map it looks like there are 3 impoundments on the upper section. Yikes. Home waters has water there too, right?

They did. I’m honestly not sure if they still do or not. My cousin bought one of the properties. They don’t lease the one section anymore. I think they sold another section a while ago. I believe they still own the stretch below the fly project.

Even with the impoundments it’s still cold all year. Imagine what it would be if they were removed.