Pressure on Central PA Trout

[Matt_Geiman]

I don't want to pick on anyone or a particular style of fishing here. I do think though about the competition style angling particularly in Central PA. The fact is more people are catching more fish, and to some extent that's a great thing. I have no disrespect for comp fishing. Most anglers are very ethical. I actually enjoy learning the new things that have developed out of this style. But with the number of anglers and catch rates increasing, will there be a point where the resource will just be taxed too much? I might be off here, just curious to get others thoughts, particularly those more in tune with the fishery. Thanks!

 

[sixfootfenwick]

I don't want to pick on anyone or a particular style of fishing here. I do think though about the competition style angling particularly in Central PA. The fact is more people are catching more fish, and to some extent that's a great thing. I have no disrespect for comp fishing. Most anglers are very ethical. I actually enjoy learning the new things that have developed out of this style. But with the number of anglers and catch rates increasing, will there be a point where the resource will just be taxed too much? I might be off here, just curious to get others thoughts, particularly those more in tune with the fishery. Thanks!

It depends on the fishery.
I've seen comp anglers on Spring.

It can handle it, it could also use them to have poor fishing handling skills and cause some mortality.

More fragile waters probably not and you would have a point .

 

[caddisflyer]

I don't want to pick on anyone or a particular style of fishing here. I do think though about the competition style angling particularly in Central PA. The fact is more people are catching more fish, and to some extent that's a great thing. I have no disrespect for comp fishing. Most anglers are very ethical. I actually enjoy learning the new things that have developed out of this style. But with the number of anglers and catch rates increasing, will there be a point where the resource will just be taxed too much? I might be off here, just curious to get others thoughts, particularly those more in tune with the fishery. Thanks!

Spring Creek gets pounded almost all year long and almost daily. The average sized fish has declined by a LOT in Spring Creek. I think this may be due to the trout being caught so often they eventually die and never live longer than a few yrs. I am sure there are other factors involved but anyone who has fished there from 30 yrs ago to today knows that the fish are much smaller on average now.

 

[sixfootfenwick]

Spring Creek gets pounded almost all year long and almost daily. The average sized fish has declined by a LOT in Spring Creek. I think this may be due to the trout being caught so often they eventually die and never live longer than a few yrs. I am sure there are other factors involved but anyone who has fished there from 30 yrs ago to today knows that the fish are much smaller on average now.

I wonder what population estimates were then to now.

Anyone know?
I always thought it was the over population of fish stunting them.
I could totally be wrong.

 

[sixfootfenwick]

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.fishandboat.com/Fish/PennsylvaniaFishes/Trout/Documents/fisherySpringCreek.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwijhcf9xNv7AhVKFlkFHfNSAOkQFnoECAcQAQ&usg=AOvVaw2xs2jG7zuXVIvdJlF9WKDm

This is a great link.
Looks like the population from 1988 on has been fairly static, but high angler hours and other factors like urbanization contribute to their small size.

 

[Fish Sticks]

Spring Creek gets pounded almost all year long and almost daily. The average sized fish has declined by a LOT in Spring Creek. I think this may be due to the trout being caught so often they eventually die and never live longer than a few yrs. I am sure there are other factors involved but anyone who has fished there from 30 yrs ago to today knows that the fish are much smaller on average now.

Any decline in stream bred trout populations has to be a component of the five component framework
(habitat/geomorphology, hydrology, water quality, connectivity, and biotic interactions). Gotta be one of these.

https://www.tu.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/TroutHabitat_Dieterman_Mitro_DASymp_Final.pdf

to the original posters question, i guess angling pressure would a biotic interaction. To see if like you asked if it is significantly negatively effecting the fish you would have to look at if there is another dominant limiting factor in an individual stream and how significant or additive pressure is compared to that one.

 

[JeremyW]

If they're stocked fish does it make much difference?

 

[Matt_Geiman]

If they're stocked fish does it make much difference?

The wild trout streams in Central PA seem to get most of the attention

 

[Fish Sticks]

If they're stocked fish does it make much difference?

Not year after year or even halfway through the year most likely

 

[Fish Sticks]

To your question about stocked trout and why pressure doesn’t matter most likely here is something from Dr. Shannon white’s trout look science communication page.

Previous Work

Today, a budding brook trout ecologist can feel overwhelmed by the amount of research that has already been done on their beloved species. And, truth be told, this feeling never goes away. Salmon...

www.thetroutlook.com

“
Up to 99% of stocked fish die within a month of being released. The cause of mortality can vary, but in many instances fish die because they don’t know how to ‘be a fish.’ The life of a fish in a hatchery involves swimming in a concrete raceway with thousands of other fish and waiting for someone to throw handfuls of pellet food into the tank. However, once released, life is much different. Fish suddenly find themselves in the presence of predators (which they cannot identify, nor avoid), in a variable environment with frequent changes in flow, temperature, and food patchiness, and surrounded by insects they don’t identify as food. Some researchers have even observed hatchery fish die in a wild stream after filling their stomachs with rocks that look like food pellets. The weight of all the rocks anchored the fish to the stream bottom, making it impossible for them to swim.”

 

[caddisflyer]

To your question about stocked trout and why pressure doesn’t matter most likely here is something from Dr. Shannon white’s trout look science communication page.

Previous Work

Today, a budding brook trout ecologist can feel overwhelmed by the amount of research that has already been done on their beloved species. And, truth be told, this feeling never goes away. Salmon...

www.thetroutlook.com

“
Up to 99% of stocked fish die within a month of being released. The cause of mortality can vary, but in many instances fish die because they don’t know how to ‘be a fish.’ The life of a fish in a hatchery involves swimming in a concrete raceway with thousands of other fish and waiting for someone to throw handfuls of pellet food into the tank. However, once released, life is much different. Fish suddenly find themselves in the presence of predators (which they cannot identify, nor avoid), in a variable environment with frequent changes in flow, temperature, and food patchiness, and surrounded by insects they don’t identify as food. Some researchers have even observed hatchery fish die in a wild stream after filling their stomachs with rocks that look like food pellets. The weight of all the rocks anchored the fish to the stream bottom, making it impossible for them to swim.”

No. If this were the case then most of the fish stocked in our delayed harvest streams would be dead very quickly. And stocked trout very quickly get the idea and adapt to eating insects etc. and thrive in the wild. MANY streams in PA have stocked fish that hold over.

 

[Fish Sticks]

No. If this were the case then most of the fish stocked in our delayed harvest streams would be dead very quickly. And stocked trout very quickly get the idea and adapt to eating insects etc. and thrive in the wild. MANY streams in PA have stocked fish that hold over.

Thats the difference between data and perception, if 3000 fish are put in a stretch 30 would be left based on what Dr. Whites saying. Now the reason why you have more hold overs is that alot of streams get second and third stockings, coop stockings, private stockings. You also have to remember thats probably an average there is prob a-lot of places where mortality is 100% for every cold water that could probably sustain wild populations that gets stocked. Now maybe the data doesn’t come from PA where we have more springs but either way if we are talking 1% or 5% pressure is not whats limiting stocked trout, its not knowing how to be a fish.

The reason you think the data Dr. White shared isn’t true is your perception created by multiple stockings stacked on top of each other and possibly the streams near you could be a deviation from the mean in the data she presented. I am guessing you don’t frequent alot of philly, pittsburg or other urban super degraded streams but areas like that wherever the data came from are part of it.

 

[Fish Sticks]

In terms of the central PA streams and euro nymphing I honestly don’t know if its effecting the fishery specifically from that specific tactic or not. You could design a trial where one group of 300 anglers randomized to one stream euro nymph for a year and 300 anglers randomized to another stream for a year sit on bank drinking Kentucky bourbon 7a-7p looking and waiting for a hatch then hunting heads. Then e-shock count em measure em and try to control for other confounders/variables. Just kidding but fisheries scientists do study angling techniques effect on fish. I saw a trial on different hook shank lengths and mortality. Fisheries podcast is a good place to look for stuff like that

 

[PennKev]

So exactly which studies show that 99% die within a month? The linked article presents no data or, more importantly, context for such claims.

Do stocked trout die in droves? Yeah, sure they do. Are they that pathetic? The answer is "It depends."

Consider this; if the mortality was that bad, pre-season stocking would be a futile effort by the PAFBC and an outrageous waste of resources. Yes, there are some streams that do not hold stocked fish very well, but in the context of spring stockings when conditions are optimal for survival, the fish usually survive "long enough." That makes for a period longer than a month in which stocked fish present a threat to wild ones.

 

[hooker-of-men]

Since I am sure a bucket of trout has been dumped into bathwater in some marginal stream and every one of them died, isn't it technically true that up to 100% of stocked trout die within a month?

See! I can be a scientist and prove whatever I want with selective presentation of data, too!

 

[joebamboo]

Has anyone ever seen massive amounts of dead stocked fish? If stocked fish die shortly after stocking, this would be the case, they would all die at the same time.

As an aside, I am not a fan of competition fishing, regardless of species.

 

[Swattie87]

Yes, stocked fish are dumb and relatively poor survivors in a stream environment. (This a good thing.) But, fish Pine Creek for example for Bass during the summer and take note of what is happening at the small trib mouths as you go by. This will confirm that even stockers come equipped with at least marginally functional fins and at least some semblance of survival instincts.

 

[PennKev]

Has anyone ever seen massive amounts of dead stocked fish? If stocked fish die shortly after stocking, this would be the case, they would all die at the same time.

As an aside, I am not a fan of competition fishing, regardless of species.

I've seen a similar question presented in regards to fish eventually dying of thermal stress. The answer is the same. They don't all die suddenly at once. Even if the die-off was condensed into the span of a month, predators and scavengers would be able to clean up the dead fish quickly enough to hide mass mortality. We're not talking about a poisoning event due to pollution, or sudden dewatering of a stream where the fish are all dead the same day or even over just a few days.

So even if stocked trout typically died at the rate suggested, I don't think it is enough to notice droves of dead fish, although one would expect to find single dead trout more often.

 

[Fish Sticks]

Yes, stocked fish are dumb and relatively poor survivors in a stream environment. (This a good thing.) But, fish Pine Creek for example for Bass during the summer and take note of what is happening at the small trib mouths as you go by. This will confirm that even stockers come equipped with at least marginally functional fins and at least some semblance of survival instincts.

Worth noting pine creek receives stocked brown trout that are likely above average fitness for stocked trout thanks to slate run tackle shop.

 

[Swattie87]

Worth noting pine creek receives stocked brown trout that are likely above average fitness for stocked trout thanks to slate run tackle shop.

Agree. Most of the fish I see attempting to survive are Browns, and many are nice fish, likely Slate Run fish. Some may even be wild Browns. But I bet roughly 25% of them are Bows, presumably of PFBC origins.

Tiny trickle tribs, draining just a couple square miles, and sometimes completely dry and sunk at their mouths, will have hundreds of fish sitting in their seeps. Multiply that by the large number of tribs to Pine, some of which are much larger and can support a larger number of refuge fish, and you start to get an idea about how many stocked fish live longer than a month after being stocked.