North Central PA Brown Trout

D

double00

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Oct 12, 2006
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I have an intresting question for the board:



As part of a thread on another board, some folks whom I believe are from Potter County, contend that there are not as many streams that support wild brown trout in that county, and throughout the northern tier, as the rest of us think. They contend that a lot of the brown trout caught in the county, and throughout the northern tier, are the result of private individuals and clubs stocking browns in many tribs to and upper reaches of "big" streams like First Fork. They go on to say that these stockings include small fish in the 3-6" range and they refer to them as "wild strain" which they desribe as looking exactly like wild browns spawned in the stream because they are raised in the spring runs and dirt raceways of small, private hatcheries.

While they concede to the existance of quality populations of wild spawned browns in some creeks, they note that many of the fish that fisherman consider wild are really these "wild strain"( in their words) browns which are stocked throughout the region, some in near fingerling size.

I was wondering if anyone had ever heard of such a thing and/ or has some actual knoweldge/ experience with it ?

These claims have been made as part of a thread revolving around an agrument over the classification and subsequent stocking/ non stocking of a portion of Cross Forks creek, a tributary to Kettle Creek in Potter County. As such, I have a suspusion that they are overstated to include many more areas and waters than is actually the case. However I wanted to check out these claims on this board to see if anyone has ever heard of such a thing and/ or experience or information on the matter.

Thanks
 
I doubt their is any significant or widespread clandestine stocking of trout finglerlings in the state.

However, there is a large segment of the "sportsmen" in this state who will simply repeat the same rubbish over and over again. Just get a thread started on coyotes or mountain lions and see what I mean. I'm convinced that such rumors and folk knowledge have more to do with personal agendas or people who are just in denial of the truth. Reaility is just too hard to cope with for some people once an idea or way of thinking has taken deep roots in their mind. In this case the thinking is: "Trout fishing requires trout stocking." I've actually had people tell me there are no wild trout in PA except for tiny brookies in the mountains.

Kev
 
Brook Trout do dominate the Northern Tier but they are wrong.

Wild brown trout are much more common than they think. I dont believe there is a wide spread stocking of 3-6 inch fish.
 
I know the stocking groups in this area only stock browns over 7", not sure about the cross fork area. some of the sportsman groups do raise browns in streams on the club properties, but feed them pellets, so in my book they are not wild just stream bred.
 
Sounds to me like a fairly close cousin to the Black Helicopter story..
 
BradfromPotter is right. There are a lot of "cough-cough Charlie Meck quote" 'heavy stream bred browns' in PotterCo.

The further eastward you roam in the Northern Tier Co's the crappier the trout fishing. Take Bradford County for example. Devoid of decent trout after May. 99% of the streams are transitional.

Your lucky Potter is blessed with good streams. It doesn't matter how the trout get into the water... you have good fishing there!
 
double00 wrote:
I have an intresting question for the board:



As part of a thread on another board, some folks whom I believe are from Potter County, contend that there are not as many streams that support wild brown trout in that county, and throughout the northern tier, as the rest of us think. They contend that a lot of the brown trout caught in the county, and throughout the northern tier, are the result of private individuals and clubs stocking browns in many tribs to and upper reaches of "big" streams like First Fork. They go on to say that these stockings include small fish in the 3-6" range and they refer to them as "wild strain" which they desribe as looking exactly like wild browns spawned in the stream because they are raised in the spring runs and dirt raceways of small, private hatcheries.

While they concede to the existance of quality populations of wild spawned browns in some creeks, [color=CC0000]they note that many of the fish that fisherman consider wild are really these "wild strain"( in their words) browns which are stocked throughout the region, some in near fingerling size.[/color]

I was wondering if anyone had ever heard of such a thing and/ or has some actual knoweldge/ experience with it ?

These claims have been made as part of a thread revolving around an agrument over the classification and subsequent stocking/ non stocking of a portion of Cross Forks creek, a tributary to Kettle Creek in Potter County. As such, I have a suspusion that they are overstated to include many more areas and waters than is actually the case. However I wanted to check out these claims on this board to see if anyone has ever heard of such a thing and/ or experience or information on the matter.

Thanks
Click to expand...



Where are these hatcheries that are cranking out the "wild strain" browns? What a bunch of BS! These must be the same people that believe landing on the moon was a hoax and the Game Commission is stocking coyotes to kill all "their" deer.

They should be thankful that the area is blessed with streams capable of producing wild trout, and not denying that fact, and making up fairy tales so the streams can be stocked......Sheesh!
 
On here the FBC is often accused of classifying streams with a Class A wild trout population as a B or C so it CAN be stocked. On the site in the link, some posters accused the FBC of classifying streams as Class A when believe they are really B's, C's or D's so they are NOT stocked. Poor Mike can't win for losing.......lol.
 
Not sure about any Potter County Streams in particular, but I know for a fact that Kinzua Creek has recieved at least 2 stockings of fingerling browns within the last 4+/- years as a "test" to see how well they would holdover and survive. This information is first hand from a WCO that I spoke with on that stream.

I would expect wild brown populations in the NC part of PA and some of the evidence I've seen first hand.
 
The great majority of the sportsmens clubs with hatcheries are part of the PFBC coop program. They get hatchery strain fingerlings from the PFBC, then raise them up to legal size and stock them. It is true that some of the trout have decent color and fins and are harder to distinguish from wild trout than trout from the large PFBC hatcherieis. Because they are raised in dirt raceways and because the water is often just a diversion of a stream, these fish are getting some natural food in addition to pellets and that tends to give them more color.

For example, on Young Womans Creek it is common to catch both wild brook trout, and stocked brook trout from the club hatchery. You can tell the difference, but the differences are subtle, not glaring. A lot of people wouldn't know the difference. But PFBC biologists and experienced fishermen can tell.

Back around 1999 I was at a meeting where one of the head guys with the Potter County Anglers group was saying that they are raising wild strain browns. I believe the idea is they that catch wild brown trout, then use those fish in the hatchery, to reproduce, and get their fingerlings that way, rather than using PFBC or commercial hatchery fingerling.

But I have never heard of any other club hatchery doing this. Has anyone else?

It is possible that the Potter County Anglers "wild strain browns" are hard to tell apart from actual wild browns, but I don't know that for sure.

I also don't know how many of these browns they raise, or what streams they put them in.

But what I know and the PFBC knows, and everybody with any knowledge of PA trout fisheries knows, is that wild browns are widely distributed in forested freestone streams. And that is true not just within the area Potter County Anglers operates, but in many areas across the state: NE PA, NW PA, the central counties, etc.

It takes a lot of work and money to run a fish hatchery and stock fish etc. So groups like PCA depends on labor and money from their supporters. So it is obvious why they would want to paint their efforts in the best light possible, to get continued support.

Also, psychologically, it would feel better to think that they are "helping Mother Nature" rather than just doing a "put-and-take", throw them in and pull them right back out again type of operation.

I think that if PCA quit stocking brown trout, that the fishing for browns that look wild would remain very much the same as it is now, because the great majority of trout you catch in that region that look like wild brown look that way because they are in fact wild brown trout.

The number of "wild appearing" brown trout that they stock is probably very small compared to the number of actual wild brown trout in those streams.

From talking to a lot of people over the years I've come to realize that a very large number of fishermen are completely unware of the CONCEPT of wild brown trout. They do not know that such a thing exists. They never heard of that. So if they catch a legal size wild brown trout, they say that's a nice holdover, or "that trout has been in the stream for a long time" and it has "really colored up."

And if they catch small, sublegal wild browns, they attribute that to someone stocking fingerlings.

It's nothing to get mad about, there's just a lot of people who haven't heard about these things. Even though Operation Future started clear back around 1979 or so, a lot of people still don't know about the existence of wild brown trout.

Maybe the PFBC could put a brief explanation in the regs booklet. That would go out to a lot of people. And more articles about these topics in the PA Angler would be good too. They used to have a brochure about wild trout that they handed out at sports shows etc. I'm not sure if they still have those or not. But more edjumication on these topics would be helpful.
 
Good post Dwight
 
I read that entire thread for entertainment value. Its sad how clueless some people are. I have to think that is the most uneducated group of internet posters Ive seen in a along time Dwight. I dont think any amount of education or ejamacation will help them.
 
BradFromPotter wrote:
How did you like the "wild" rainbow? :-?
Click to expand...

That sounded like a young kid posting that. It was definitely not a wild trout, but give the kid a break, tell him without being harsh.

Some people tried to do that, saying it's not a wild trout but it's still fun to catch, good job, etc.
 
Ya that wild bow had me chuckling 🙂

What I thought was even more funny is how you try to tell people the difference between Co-op raise hatchery trout and PFBC raised trout and they just dont get it.

Even more funny is the notion of these blanket stockings of "wild strain" brown trout.

The most funny was the comments:

a good way to tell is if you go to a hole and catch a fish on ever cast it has oviously been stocked
Click to expand...

:lol:

and

yes there are wild fish. its just if your not on a class a stream its most likely a stocked fish.
Click to expand...

These are the types of views that just make me shake my head.
 
the fish commison has been stocking thousands fingerling browns for years , little j , yough , clarion , lehigh , and the list goes on , does a fingerling brown go up toby creek ,clear creek, toms run , cathers run , mill creek , or bear creek (and that list goes on) and grow to be caught by someone who says "this is a awesome looking brownie , look at the spots on him " then they stock the little j from the rr bridge at the east border of ironville to the mouth of spruce creek , do some swim up spruce creek to be caught by someone to say "wow what a colorful wild brown ," U BET THEY DO !
 
I can sum it up best by saying this.

It's all BS. I'm not going to bother reading the 39 pages of responses on the link provided to qualify my answer.
The "Angler's Club" has their own agenda, have for a long time. It's a love/hate relationship with them for many anglers in our area, with camp owners that are members loving them (for stocking waters that the majority of anglers don't have acces or "welcomed" access to) and the majority of everyone else hating them. I'm personally pretty neutral, except for the propaganda they belch out all the time.

They really seem to believe that they know more than the biologists who work for PFBC. Their biggest grip at the moment is about 200 yards of Cross Fork creek that was re-listed (rightfully so) to class A. This pissed off some camp owners who enjoyed their own "private" stocked waters and the "Angler's Club" is most likely afraid of losing $ due to not having them as members anymore because why would they join if they can't have their back yards stocked.

The most current "rumor" is that the "Angler's Club" stocked that section 3 days before the state electro-fished it and the state counted all of the stocked trout as wild and classified the stream A quality. I, personally, have a hard time believing that our biologists can't tell the difference between the clubs fish and wild ones. Most look obviously like stocked fish, especially fresh and compared to our healthy wild browns. The body shapes are even a bit different. But either way.

SO, in retaliation, the “Angler’s Club” put out a statement (actually several) that if they can’t stock Cross Fork (all 200 yards of it in this instance) they won’t stock the entire Kettle Creek Watershed. (No big deal, the state already stocks it at a higher rate than any other stream in the state). Also in retaliation, the “Angler’s Club” has also refused to give fish to sportsmen clubs in the Kettle Watershed for their kids’ fishing derbies and had the gall to state the sportsmen’s club is “hurting kids” by supporting non-stocking of that particular stretch of Cross Fork creek.

In essence, it seems like a bunch of big babies fighting over crappy candy. Their fish aren’t all that by any stretch of imagination. The God’s Country Chapter of TU “buys” a few hundred fish from them every spring and stocks the project on the upper Allegheny. Other than the yearling wild fish in that stretch, you’ll have to fish pretty hard to catch a smaller trout that is over legal keeping size. This seems to be the case in every water they stock, which isn’t only in Potter County.


But, the bottom line is, WE CERTAINLY DO HAVE SELF-SUSTAINING WILD BROWN POPULATIONS IN A GOOD MANY OF OUR STREAMS IN POTTER COUNTY. My experience has actually been opposite of what was originally posted, many anglers seem to label clearly stocked trout as “wild.” Also, to the best of my knowledge (and the knowledge of the current and former Waterways officers and several deputies whom I’ve asked about fingerling stockings in our area – as I think they could work on some of the streams) there are not fingerling stockings up here. There have been some “jail breaks” from hatcheries during high water times over the years, but not to an extent to put these fish in multiple watersheds.
 
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