Loss of brook trout

silverfox

silverfox

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Disclaimer, this post is based on anecdotal “evidence” based on about 25 years of fishing this stream. It’s purely my observations of what has happened, though it is shared by several other people I know. As far as I’m aware, there was never a “before and after” scientific study on the effects of policies and physical alterations.

It’s also not a call to action, or even a suggestion that anything be done about it. Unfortunately, it’s too late for any corrective action on this stream. I’m only putting this out there so that hopefully someone stops to think about it. This stream is not unique in the state.

If you don't want to read my long meandering post, just skip to the elevator version at TL;DR

I’ve noticed a significant decline in native brook trout in a stream that I’ve fished most of my life. The stream can be broken down into 3 sections. The headwater section is very remote and most of it is only accessible by hiking a good distance through the woods along the stream. The middle section flows through agricultural land and has a hard road along most of it’s length. The lower section has the same characteristics as the middle section, but it’s temperatures get much warmer in the summer.

I’m sure some folks here might recognize this stream, and if you do, I’m really curious to hear your thoughts as well. I’ve encountered strangers who I’ve spoken to streamside who have offered up this same observation unprovoked in discussing the stream and how it’s changed. While I don’t have the scientific background or means to solidify any of this as actual data, I’m convinced that a series of human impacts have altered the native population in the stream.

In the 1990’s, the upper reaches of this stream were almost entirely brook trout. You would occasionally catch a holdover brown above where they were stocked, but it was certainly the exception rather than the norm. The middle section was always a popular stocked trout stream and still is today. On any given weekend and often during the week, you’ll see cars parked along the hard road through the middle section and see people fishing it pretty regularly all year round. The upper section was never as popular with the stocked trout fishermen due to it’s “walk in” access and smaller flow. While a dirt road parallels the stream for a good portion of the upper section, you normally have to park and walk through the woods 50 to 100 yards to get to the stream. I think that always limited the number of harvest anglers in the upper section.

The upper section itself can be broken down into 2 unique stretches. The lower portion of the upper section has the gravel road along most of it’s course. The upper portion has no road access except for a gamelands road that is only open in the fall/winter. The lower portion of the upper section was always mostly inhabited by brook trout. Admittedly, in the 90’s, the fish were somewhat spread thin through this area. Trout in general were not in class A abundance, but it was certainly more brook trout than brown trout.

The upper portion of the upper section was entirely brook trout, and it always had really good numbers of fish. I never caught anything other than brook trout in the upper portion of the upper section through the 90’s and 2000’s. This upper section had a fair number of good size brook trout as well. Nothing out of the ordinary, but 10 inch brookies were not unusual.

In 2005, the upper portion of the upper section was designated as Class A. If my recollection is correct, prior to 2005, there were a few small stream improvement projects along the upper section. Some may have even pre-dated the 2000’s, but thinking back that far is getting harder. Around the time it was designated as class A, there were a few more jack dams and bank improvement projects added in the upper section. This continued into recent times, and I know it was a “flagship” project for some folks.

The stream improvements did their job, and the upper section where they were installed, did in fact attract trout. I recall in the 2000’s fishing one summer and finding an amazing amount of fish “stuck” at one of the jack dams. The water was low and they couldn’t get over the dam. This was the type of dam where logs were laid across the stream and then planking covered in plastic was laid parallel to the stream flow with rock jetties on either side. This creates a nice waterfall pool when the flow is up, but an impassable barrier when the water is low. Regardless, the dams did in fact add habitat to the stream that worked in the trout’s favor.

Over the years, the number of brook trout in the upper section has continued to decline, while the number of brown trout has skyrocketed. Where you used to only catch a holdover brown trout or two, you now almost exclusively catch wild brown trout. I’ve also caught wild rainbow trout more recently and have noticed a lot more holdover rainbow trout throughout the upper section. Just last spring I caught several juvenile wild brown trout all the way in the very upper portion of the headwaters. The browns have taken over.

In addition to the browns taking hold throughout the system, the state continues to this day to stock 5lb + browns all the way up to the demarcation line where the Class A section starts. I’ve caught big stocked browns far up into the upper section recently along with some large wild browns. A local club also stocks rainbows throughout the upper section below the Class A line.

As with many freestone streams in the region, this stream gets fairly warm in the summer and the flows typically get very low. As is expected, all of the stocked trout that were stocked in the middle section find their way into the upper section by late June/early July. I fish this stream extremely regularly throughout the entire year except during the closed season before the trout season opener. It’s abundantly obvious when you’re on the stream as often as I am what the fish are doing.

In January, you’ll catch a mix of stocked and wild fish in slower pools throughout the middle section and upper section. In trout season, after it’s stocked, you catch stocked fish throughout the middle section and slightly into the upper section. By summer, it’s mostly chubs and suckers in the middle section with a few trout holding where there are feeders or spring seeps and the upper section is polluted with stocked trout. By fall and into winter, the fish are more spread out again.

The one common thing that has happened, is that all year long, the brookies are pushed into the very upper portion of the upper section. Below the class A line, it’s VERY rare these days to catch a brook trout, whereas in the 90’s, you could catch brookies from the transition between the middle section and the upper section. At about the transition between middle and upper, there is a sizeable feeder stream. This is at about the point where water becomes too warm below the feeder to support trout year round. Another troubling side effect of the impact on the stream is that the feeder is now inundated with brown trout as well.

This feeder was always a brookie only stream. It’s almost a miniature example of it’s destination stream (subject stream) in that it too has had a number of stream improvement projects added along it’s course. Studies have found large brown trout all the way into the very small upper sections of this feeder stream today. As the middle section warms and the flows drop, the leftover stocked fish find their way into these thermal refuge areas of the stream (feeders and mainstem) where they push the brookies out.

None of this is surprising, and I’m sure it’s no shock to anyone. To me, this is a very disturbing example of what stocking over native fish can do. I get very irritated when the response from the state is that “they aren’t stocking over native fish on this stream” because they don’t physically stock IN the Class A section. The native trout range realistically extends far downstream of where the Class A section starts. Essentially, it should be from the feeder stream upstream to the source.

We (anglers and the state) have set in motion the extirpation of brook trout in this stream. That may seem like a harsh statement, but I wholeheartedly believe it’s true. In 25+ years, the number of brook trout in this stream has declined so dramatically, that I suspect in another 25-50 years, there will be NO brook trout in this system, or they will be reduced to a very small population of tiny brook trout in the most extreme portions of the headwater sections. While global climate, and trends in groundwater temperatures will play a role in this, it’s really our fault that they’ll be gone.

Numerous studies have shown the impact stocking over wild/native fish has. There is no argument that they don’t ultimately displace the native fish. Whether it be via predation from large stocked/wild browns, outcompeting native fish for habitat and food, or reduction in resources (food+refuge habitat).

It takes some time for an invasive species to take hold in an ecosystem. I believe in this stream’s case, a few factors have accelerated the take-over. Reduction in anglers and increased catch and release practice has likely resulted in more brown trout surviving the spring stocking and fishing season. Those numbers likely increased the odds of natural reproduction in the upper section of the stream. The stream improvement projects likely weren’t designed with native brook trout in mind. There are differences in stream habitat preferences between brown and brook trout. In my opinion, the stream improvement projects improved brown trout habitat in the upper section of the stream. In addition to the habitat itself being favorable to brown trout, the dams limited, or in some years likely completely prohibited movement of trout from below the dams to upstream. This likely trapped brook trout in the downstream sections which then likely became unsuitable for survival.

At this point, the brown trout population has become so well established, and is inhabiting so much of the system, there would be no way to eliminate them. The only course would be to poison the entire stream and re-populate it with brook trout. Obviously, that will never happen. So, unfortunately, this stream will eventually be a complete loss of native brook trout habitat. All in the pursuit of license sales and easy fishing.

This frankly disgusts me. I personally don’t understand how the state can say they have a “resource first” approach to conservation, yet continue to have no concern for the long term effects of stocking in native brook trout streams. No matter how you look at this stream, the loss of brook trout will be almost completely at the hands of the state and local clubs.

The current approach to stream management is disturbing. This stream is one of those cases where the middle and lower sections of the stream are not suitable for trout survival during the summer. In all honesty, there should be no trout in the middle to lower sections except for seasonal movements of brook trout. Just because a downstream section of a stream can hold trout during the season opener, doesn’t mean it should be stocked. Those fish wont stay in the marginal water once it becomes unsuitable for survival.

If this stream were truly managed in a “resource first” approach, it would not be stocked at all. Local people would lose a stocked trout stream that should have never been a stocked trout stream to begin with. The majority of the stream for the majority of the year would hold nothing but creek chubs and suckers, but that’s simply what it should be. Why do we feel like we need to wreck nature because we want to have an easy trout harvest stream? Why do we think every stream that can hold trout for a few months so people can catch them needs to have trout stocked in it?

I’m sorry, but I completely disagree with the sentiment that trout stocking is fine as long as it’s in marginal water. That marginal water is almost certainly the downstream portion of a brook trout headwater refuge. Those stocked fish will invade the brook trout’s habitat and eventually take over. Evolution takes a long time. We haven’t been around long enough to know what the long term effects of stocking trout where they shouldn’t be will be. At the end of the day, we live in a state that should only have brook trout. I understand that humans want bigger fish to catch, but is that really worth displacing a species from their native home?

TL;DR: Stocking browns and stream improvement projects has resulted in browns taking over the brook trout habitat, and there are far fewer brook trout today than there were 25 years ago.

I'm not sure how the images will show up, but you can click the link to view them on flickr in higher resolution. I made the maps to hopefully give a visual to the stream from my post.

This is as the stream was (as I recall) in the 1990's.

1990s by phildlight, on Flickr

This is today;

current by phildlight, on Flickr
 
^ Not Too Long

Did Read

Great insight

Thank you for writing this to make anglers aware.
 
Good post. I agree with almost all you said, especially pertaining to that particular stream. I know exactly where you are talking about, and your description couldn’t be better.

In fact, about 20 years ago, when I was about 17 and just really starting to fish trout consistently, and in the phase where I realized my passion was fishing for big trout, I spent a pile of time on this creek. Caught some nice fish, especially in winter. Now, I only hit it a few times a year for old times sake, but I have experienced the same thing as you. I rarely get a Brookie anymore on the upstream (class a) section. I like the feeder you referred to also, and I still get some Brooks here, but no doubt WAY more wild browns than ever before. Browns outnumber now there probably 15 to 1. Or more.

Your post is eye opening, and I’m sure this is happening on other streams.

And not to highjack your thread and come back to big fish, but you know that too warm water down on the lowest reaches? There is some beasts down there and I think a lot come from that marginal river that stream flows into.

Again, great post.
 
Brook trout plain and simply cannot compete with brown trout. I've noticed this same trend in some of the local streams I fish in Columbia county. I do feel a tad bit sorry at times (loss of brookies) but I've come to appreciate the wild browns who absolutely flourish in these beautiful freestone streams.
 
You stated that PA is a state that should only have brook trout. From a historical aspect, yes, but from a modern aspect this just isn't possible. I'm not referring to stocking being the reason for this, either, it is humans changing the environment. A vast majority of our wild trout waters have to be brown trout waters because of stream siltation, water warmer from agricultural practices and more sunlight from deforestation, etc. So, with that said, I'm glad that we have many miles of wild brown trout where there would otherwise be no trout at all.

With that said, I'm totally for the cessation of trout stocking in the entire state. That would mean the PFBC would require much less money and could also cut a lot of staff. Let's let trout live where trout naturally can survive and other places, well, people can fish for other fish.

Today I was on one of my favorite freestoners. It is stocked it's entire length but in reality only the upper several miles are trout water. It still holds a ton of wild brookies, some wild browns, as well as holdover brookies, browns, and rainbows. Today, however, I turned up two rainbows that certainly looked like they could be wild and were smaller than the state would intentionally stock. But, there are still lots of brookies and some good sized 10" brookies or so. It has been stocked for A LONG TIME so I wonder why certain streams seem more resistant than others to this takeover. But, for as long as humans have been around we have carried with us beneficial animals and have totally altered the wildlife wolrdwide. It is what it is and there is no reversing this damage. We can only change moving forward and learn from our mistakes. I'm not so sure that we will though.
 
I do want to apologize if that came across as somewhat of a negative comment. I think that we need to preserve our brook trout as much as possible and I don't really care for stocking, at all. Education of the public is so important as most people are totally ignorant of these problems. Also, most people probably frankly don't care.
 
Brown71 wrote:
Good post. I agree with almost all you said, especially pertaining to that particular stream. I know exactly where you are talking about, and your description couldn’t be better.

In fact, about 20 years ago, when I was about 17 and just really starting to fish trout consistently, and in the phase where I realized my passion was fishing for big trout, I spent a pile of time on this creek. Caught some nice fish, especially in winter. Now, I only hit it a few times a year for old times sake, but I have experienced the same thing as you. I rarely get a Brookie anymore on the upstream (class a) section. I like the feeder you referred to also, and I still get some Brooks here, but no doubt WAY more wild browns than ever before. Browns outnumber now there probably 15 to 1. Or more.

Your post is eye opening, and I’m sure this is happening on other streams.

And not to highjack your thread and come back to big fish, but you know that too warm water down on the lowest reaches? There is some beasts down there and I think a lot come from that marginal river that stream flows into.

Again, great post.

Good to hear from someone else who's familiar with the place! Yeah, the "warm water" area as I described it is more of an illustration of "why". I agree too, that big fish are coming from the river/stream that it empties into, and yes, depending on time of year, that "warm water" lower portion holds tanks. It does get pretty warm in the summer, but I know even all the way downstream there are refuge spots.

While I'm really a brookie addict, I can appreciate the big browns since they're there and there's really nothing to do about it. I've dangled sculpins in the log jams a good bit myself, and I'm still amazed at where the hogs live in that stream.

@jifigz, No offense taken at all! I know exactly what you mean. At the same time, I think that's the attitude the state has too. We're so far down the rabbit hole (stocking) at this point that we might as well work with what we have. I think the attitude is that we've got a lot of miles of brookie streams, so what's the big deal if we've trashed a few.

The big thing that's missing in this state is larger bodies of water that are brookie only. The stream in my original post is a good example of a stream that was probably chosen for stocking due to its size. It's a decent sized stream, so it can hold a lot of trout. We carry out stream improvements, but we don't establish entire systems for brookie only. I understand environmental impacts have reduced their habitat, but what good is it to improve habitat and then stock over them (or downstream of them)?

Off the topic of this particular stream, but I went and fished a "brookie only" class A back in september. This stream is fairly short and dumps into a lake. There is a sizable beaver pond right before it enters the lake. The lake is stocked with fingerling brookies by the state, and rainbows by a local club. Guess what I caught just above the beaver pond? A brown trout. A guy I ran into fishing the lake said the club started stocking browns.

The overall problem is that the state doesn't seem to put much weight in the problem of stocking over brookies. Even on their "action plan" document, they do mention stocking over brook trout as a problem, but only in 2 places, and they're the last item on the list of "things to do". That makes no sense to me. Well, it does make sense to me, when stocking is what the PAFBC cares most about.
 
Dear silverfox,

I have no idea which stream you are talking about? But I can tell you that when I began fishing on Fishing Creek in Clinton County in the late 1980's from the Tylersville Hatchery downstream at least halfway through the Trophy Trout section that brook trout easily represented half of the biomass.

While they didn't grow as large as the brown trout, there were plenty of 12 inch plus fish, and I caught many that were 14 to 15 inches. Decent sized brook trout were common, and they rose readily to Hendrickson's, Grannom's, and the big early Sulphur's. It was my favorite crick back then.

After Tylersville flooded in the mid-1990's the stream changed forever. By the time my brother Terry moved to Colorado I had pretty much given up on fishing it.

It was often heavily pressured in the late 1980's, but by 1995 or so you couldn't find a place to park along the Trophy Trout Stretch on a Saturday after about 7:30 AM during the Spring. Back in like 1997 I was there talking to my buddy Whitey one Spring morning during turkey season and he came up with the all time greatest quote of ever!

I mentioned that it was awfully crowded. He said, "You probably can't get a BJ in NJ today." I looked at him funny and said, "Why is that?" He said, "Because every CS'er in NJ is on Fishing Creek today!"

We laughed and went to Spring Creek, and I really haven't been back since.

Regards,

Tim Murphy :)
 
I had a stream in mind as I was reading and the maps confirm it.

I’ve only fished the “upper” stretch. Twice now. Both times in relatively good conditions, and it fished well. My catch ratio was about 10:1 Browns to Brookies, though I did catch a few Brookies on each trip. It’s a good stream, but it’s definitely a Brown Trout stream now. I don’t have the historical point of reference to note the change over time. I’ve never caught a Rainbow in it though.

Good post. I think this is common on a lot of streams where Browns start to get a foothold.

Was the Brown you caught on the other stream (I think I know which one that is too) wild or a stockie from the lake?

There are a lot of recovering AMD streams that start out with Brookies migrating in from somewhere else in the watershed. As the water quality continues to improve, somebody starts stocking them. Before long you have Browns reproducing in them, and then Browns begin their takeover. Outside of conditions that are too acidic, Browns will outcompete Brookies in nearly all other facets.

 
I've been pondering what stream this could be and I've done a little but of research but I have no idea. Interesting analysis though and I do appreciate your observations. The one thing that I'm trying to keep track is where I keep seeming to turn up wild rainbows and it is becoming more and more common.
 
Hard to say what happened. Here is my theory- Brook Trout can survive in tiny trickles that get very low in summer. Browns not so much. Make improvements that deepen and create "great" habitat and guess which type of trout thrives.

I fished Cross Fork a few times and noticed that I caught way more nice Brook Trout when I got away from improved sections. More stocked fish and Browns were around the stream devices.
 
The comment that by summer the upper section is polluted with stocked trout interested me. While it is not specifically said that the Class A portion of the upper section is also “polluted” (the op’s description of abundance, I believe), whether it is or isn’t is not pertinent to that which I am about to write. Having surveyed many, many stocked trout streams sections, often designated as Section 02, and many wild trout sections (often designated as Section 01) with varying biomass classifications upstream from the stocked Section 02’s, I have never seen an abundance of stocked trout in wild trout sections upstream from the stocked sections that I can recall, and that would have been pretty noteworthy. If any stocked trout were captured by electrofishing at all in those upstream sections, they typically amounted to something like 1-4 per 300 m site. From a practical standpoint, the numbers were inconsequential.

The op describes what I would consider to be an unusual situation regarding the intrusion of apparently numerous stocked trout into a wild trout section upstream from the stocked trout section. I am not claiming that this is necessarily unique, as I have not surveyed every stream in the state, just unusual based on my considerable experience.

If I were an AFM (now retired) and I was convinced that there were too many stocked trout remaining in the system after the spring pressure subsided, I would be first looking at the PFBC stocking rate and frequency and then trying to determine how many fish the sportsmen were stocking. If it was a private club, there would be nothing that could be done other than to change the state rate or frequency of stocking. The problem in those cases is that clubs can change their practices at any time and suddenly the state is understocking a popular stream. If it was a cooperative nursery, which the op has NOT stated, then it could be asked, not required, to reduce the stocking rate. If the co-op did not wish to do so, then the state rate or frequency could perhaps be reduced or an agreement might be reached that the state would stock preseason and the co-op stock a set, more appropriate number of fish inseason. Again, note that the op did not say that the club stocking the stream is a cooperative nursery.







 
silverfox wrote:
I’m sorry, but I completely disagree with the sentiment that trout stocking is fine as long as it’s in marginal water. That marginal water is almost certainly the downstream portion of a brook trout headwater refuge. Those stocked fish will invade the brook trout’s habitat and eventually take over. Evolution takes a long time. We haven’t been around long enough to know what the long term effects of stocking trout where they shouldn’t be will be. At the end of the day, we live in a state that should only have brook trout. I understand that humans want bigger fish to catch, but is that really worth displacing a species from their native home?

The paragraph above from the OP struck me most.

I've never been opposed to stocking "marginal waters" with trout to extend opportunities for anglers to fish. I've always subscribed to conventional thinking that there is no harm to stocking sections of streams which are marginal water (for trout) downstream and not stocking wild trout sections upstream. But the above gives me pause on that thinking.

It is likely the wild brookies drop down into the lower sections to feed in the favorable times of the season and retreat back into the upper sections when the water warms. Conversely, if stocked trout are C&Red, it is likely they will travel upstream as temperatures warm and crowd out the native trout. So stocking and C&R of stocked trout in the marginal sections of streams can have negative consequences in this scenario.
 
afishinado wrote:
silverfox wrote:
I’m sorry, but I completely disagree with the sentiment that trout stocking is fine as long as it’s in marginal water. That marginal water is almost certainly the downstream portion of a brook trout headwater refuge. Those stocked fish will invade the brook trout’s habitat and eventually take over. Evolution takes a long time. We haven’t been around long enough to know what the long term effects of stocking trout where they shouldn’t be will be. At the end of the day, we live in a state that should only have brook trout. I understand that humans want bigger fish to catch, but is that really worth displacing a species from their native home?

The paragraph above from the OP struck me most.

I've never been opposed to stocking "marginal waters" with trout to extend opportunities for anglers to fish. I've always subscribed to conventional thinking that there is no harm to stocking sections of streams which are marginal water (for trout) downstream and not stocking wild trout sections upstream. But the above gives me pause on that thinking.

It is likely the wild brookies drop down into the lower sections to feed in the favorable times of the season and retreat back into the upper sections when the water warms. Conversely, if stocked trout are C&Red, it is likely they will travel upstream as temperatures warm and crowd out the native trout. So stocking and C&R of stocked trout in the marginal sections of streams can have negative consequences in this scenario.

Well Tom, one more reason to harvest some stockies. I'm going to be harvesting some stockies from one of my favorite wild brookie stream soon.
 
I've figured out which stream you are talking about. Would it matter if we named it? It's a stocked stream after all.

In the past it was stocked the whole way up through the SGL, to where the paved road crosses. From the county line up through the SGL to the paved road was stocked in the pre-season, with brook trout.

A friend and I fished on 8/7/02 starting just below the SGL boundary and fishing well up into the SGL. We caught both wild browns and brook trout. Mostly wild browns in the lower end of the SGL and more wild brook trout as we got further upstream, but there were still numerous wild browns as far up as we got, which was probably about the middle of the SGL.

We also caught a lot of hatchery fish, mostly brookies, but also 2 rainbows.

I think that the SGL water is now Class A and not stocked.

But how what about the section below that? Does the PFBC stock it? Does the sportsmen club stock it?



 
Mike wrote:
The comment that by summer the upper section is polluted with stocked trout interested me. While it is not specifically said that the Class A portion of the upper section is also “polluted” (the op’s description of abundance, I believe), whether it is or isn’t is not pertinent to that which I am about to write. Having surveyed many, many stocked trout streams sections, often designated as Section 02, and many wild trout sections (often designated as Section 01) with varying biomass classifications upstream from the stocked Section 02’s, I have never seen an abundance of stocked trout in wild trout sections upstream from the stocked sections that I can recall, and that would have been pretty noteworthy. If any stocked trout were captured by electrofishing at all in those upstream sections, they typically amounted to something like 1-4 per 300 m site. From a practical standpoint, the numbers were inconsequential.

The op describes what I would consider to be an unusual situation regarding the intrusion of apparently numerous stocked trout into a wild trout section upstream from the stocked trout section. I am not claiming that this is necessarily unique, as I have not surveyed every stream in the state, just unusual based on my considerable experience.

If I were an AFM (now retired) and I was convinced that there were too many stocked trout remaining in the system after the spring pressure subsided, I would be first looking at the PFBC stocking rate and frequency and then trying to determine how many fish the sportsmen were stocking. If it was a private club, there would be nothing that could be done other than to change the state rate or frequency of stocking. The problem in those cases is that clubs can change their practices at any time and suddenly the state is understocking a popular stream. If it was a cooperative nursery, which the op has NOT stated, then it could be asked, not required, to reduce the stocking rate. If the co-op did not wish to do so, then the state rate or frequency could perhaps be reduced or an agreement might be reached that the state would stock preseason and the co-op stock a set, more appropriate number of fish inseason. Again, note that the op did not say that the club stocking the stream is a cooperative nursery.

Admittedly, "polluted" is probably a poor choice of words. Your 1-4 per 300m section is probably inline with what I've seen over the years. It also varies from year to year. Last year the stocked fish moved a good deal further upstream than they have in the past. The furthest I've caught a stocked fish (rainbow) from the end of the stocking limit (downstream beginning of the Class A section) is 3 miles. The furthest I've ran into stocked browns (a big one) was 1.85 miles into the Class A.

I didn't necessarily intend "polluted" to mean "overrun" as much as I meant it in a derogatory sense.

I understand the state has a lot on their plate in terms of managing all of our streams. Surveys are the only way they have any idea of what is going on. I think there's a big difference between surveying a stream 2 or 3 times over 5 years vs fishing it regularly (3 or 4 times a month) for a lot of years. It wasn't until I heard other people who fish the stream say the same thing that I was certain that my observations were correct.

Stocked fish are only one piece of the puzzle here too. The wild browns are probably the bigger issue. That problem though, is a direct result of stocking (obviously). Which is the point I'm trying to make.
 
afishinado wrote:

The paragraph above from the OP struck me most.

I've never been opposed to stocking "marginal waters" with trout to extend opportunities for anglers to fish. I've always subscribed to conventional thinking that there is no harm to stocking sections of streams which are marginal water (for trout) downstream and not stocking wild trout sections upstream. But the above gives me pause on that thinking.

It is likely the wild brookies drop down into the lower sections to feed in the favorable times of the season and retreat back into the upper sections when the water warms. Conversely, if stocked trout are C&Red, it is likely they will travel upstream as temperatures warm and crowd out the native trout. So stocking and C&R of stocked trout in the marginal sections of streams can have negative consequences in this scenario.

Bingo. I've read studies on trout movement, and it's astounding how far they travel.

Sorry to "spot burn" here, but hey, it's Maryland, so no harm? :)

I've caught palominos (golden rainbows or bananas if you will) all the way up by the dam on the Savage river. The nearest place they stock bananas down there is the North Branch, and I think they stock them pretty far up the NB too. Being conservative, that's 5 stream miles, but if you've ever been in that area, you would know that the gradient and flow of those rivers means that was a hard fought journey for that yellow trout.

I'm shocked sometimes at where stocked fish end up. Like the story about the beaver dam brown trout. I'm actually not sure how on earth it found it's way out of the lake, through a pretty well built beaver dam and up into the stream.

I'm not so sure anymore that stocking fish in adjacent streams is as benign as I used to think. Of course, just because they turn up somewhere doesn't necessarily mean that they're going to populate a place. It does increase the likelihood that it will happen at some point in the future though.
 
troutbert wrote:
I've figured out which stream you are talking about. Would it matter if we named it? It's a stocked stream after all.

In the past it was stocked the whole way up through the SGL, to where the paved road crosses. From the county line up through the SGL to the paved road was stocked in the pre-season, with brook trout.

A friend and I fished on 8/7/02 starting just below the SGL boundary and fishing well up into the SGL. We caught both wild browns and brook trout. Mostly wild browns in the lower end of the SGL and more wild brook trout as we got further upstream, but there were still numerous wild browns as far up as we got, which was probably about the middle of the SGL.

We also caught a lot of hatchery fish, mostly brookies, but also 2 rainbows.

I think that the SGL water is now Class A and not stocked.

But how what about the section below that? Does the PFBC stock it? Does the sportsmen club stock it?

Currently, they stop stocking at the monument. Which is still way too far up into the woods as far as I'm concerned. The number of brookies does increase as you go upstream from the monument. Like you said though, there are wild browns all the way up above the SGL.

The concerning thing is I think it's probably gotten much worse since 02. I fished that upper section this spring by walking down the SGL access road at the top (gate was closed) and fished down pretty far into the SGL. Right at where the SGL road comes to the stream, the first fish I caught was a decent size (10 inch or so) wild brown. If I recall, I caught 2 nice brookies and about a dozen wild browns from 4" to 10".

Again, that's 3 miles from where they stocked fish. So even if the stocked fish don't necessarily make it that far, their offspring certainly do.
 
silverfox wrote:

Currently, they stop stocking at the monument. Which is still way too far up into the woods as far as I'm concerned. The number of brookies does increase as you go upstream from the monument. Like you said though, there are wild browns all the way up above the SGL.

The concerning thing is I think it's probably gotten much worse since 02. I fished that upper section this spring by walking down the SGL access road at the top (gate was closed) and fished down pretty far into the SGL. Right at where the SGL road comes to the stream, the first fish I caught was a decent size (10 inch or so) wild brown. If I recall, I caught 2 nice brookies and about a dozen wild browns from 4" to 10".

Again, that's 3 miles from where they stocked fish. So even if the stocked fish don't necessarily make it that far, their offspring certainly do.

I agree that the area managed as unstocked wild trout water should be extended way downstream. As far down as the lower state park boundary. And the PFBC had proposed ending stocking in that section in the past. Around 2003 I believe. But as with many other Class Bs that were proposed for ending stocking, it got beat back by political pressure.

Ending stocking in that section would benefit both the native brookies and the wild browns.

But ending stocking, even of the whole stream, would not get rid of the wild brown trout. They have a self reproducing population. They are not dependent on continued stocking.

But, I have seen cases where ending stocking over mixed populations has resulted in more, and larger, brook trout in the streams. It can definitely help.
 
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