Infamous Water Test for Dry Flies

[YoughnessMonster]

Hello all,

I have been battling with my dry flies for awhile now. I have noticed that some no matter what I do ride incorrectly. I have recently been dropping flies in a glad bowl of water upon completion with varying results. It seems my catskill, EHC, Humpy, and even sometimes emerger and parachute flies sit awkwardly. Sometimes ****ed to one side sometimes the tail sinks and the fly rides vertical. I have decided to suspend my dry fly tying until I can cure this issue. Since I have a lot of time on my hands today I believe I will add pictures of the fly completed fresh off the vice and then a picture of the fly upon dropping it in water. I am dropping the fly from about 3-4" to the bowl.

 

[FGSIII]

Many times the trout don't mind those things. Injured and damaged naturals are easy meals.

 

[dryflyguy]

One thing I do to help this problem, is tie all of my mayfly imitations with divided tails. Definitely helps the fly to land and ride properly.

 

[YoughnessMonster]

Yellow Humpy Hot off the vice

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Fish View

Upside-Down View

Top-Side View

First Drop in Water
Pic doesn't do "the LEAN" thats going on justice it is far worse than it looks.

Drop 2. Tail is already sinking.

Another Common fly position after a drop.

Decided to try trimming hackles

1st Drop after trim

Fly with 4x Nylon Tippet
This shows the most common lean that I'm seeing in my flies

 

[YoughnessMonster]

Also I am using Whiting Pro Grade feathers for Hackle and am using a hackle gauge. To me it seems that the hackles may be a little large.

 

[troutbert]

It's hard to tell from the photos, but the problem could be that you may not be wrapping your hackle completely perpendicular to the hook shank the whole way around.

Just take a look at the fly to see if the hackle is wound in the same plane the whole way around.

If not, pay attention to that when winding the hackle. Keep the feather at a right angle to the hook shank as you wind.

I'm not sure that's what

 

[sandfly]

looks like the hook point is not breaking the surface tension in the last pic. hackle looks good to me. in the pic from above it looks like the hook is bent, are you putting to much pressure on hook when tying and putting a bend in the hook, hooks with offset points will lay over everytime. "length of shank+eye=curve and point"for a balance. make sure A=D like in picture if D is to long fly will tip over..

 

[YoughnessMonster]

I don't believe i'm putting too much pressure on and I feel like I am wrapping the hackle perpendicular. I believe I'm going to have to make a trip to come visit you SandFly so you can give me tips at the vice.

 

[sandfly]

bring your tool and vice and come for a weekend..bring your food too..

 

[outsider]

Curious. What material are you using for the hump? Doesn't look like the original, which used deer hair. Is the weight of the hump too heavy, creating a higher center of gravity, causing it to roll over?

I also split the tails on my dry flies, act as out-riggers.

Hump? What hump?

 

[outsider]

One more observation: If you look closely at the hackle size, some of the barbs are almost 2 times the width of the hook gap. Try a smaller hackle in relationship to the hook gap.

 

[FrequentTyer]

What kind of hook is that? The gap looks large to me. I have no idea what the problem is, but here are some thoughts on the pictures that may or may not help.
I think the the tails are fine. They are heavy and well splayed. You shouldn't need to split on this pattern if the tail is tied in like you have. The wings look poorly defined (no offense, I don't mean ugly, just cant see if they are posted). Did you post them independently? If so, be careful to set them in the same plane (ie. dont have one leaning forward or backward relative to the other. If you look at your 2nd and 4th picture, the wings and hackle seem unbalanced from one side to the other. This, combined with the top heaviness of the pattern, and what looks like a wide gape hook that is not penetrating the surface will all combine to cause the fly to roll. If the hook is not penetrating because the fly is riding on the tail and hackle, try either decreasing the size of the hackle (which will help get the hook lower) or moving the wings back a bit to shift the center of mass (which will keep the hook up but help it ride better). Finally, the hackle looks uneven to me in that some of the tips seem longer and others shorter. Make sure you have an even base to to wrap the hackle on and try not to overlap any wraps.
I'm sorry to sound so critical. It's a nice fly. I'm just pulling it apart to hopefully get you where you want to be with it.
Mike.

 

[dryflyguy]

I also agree that the hackle is a little long - and pushing the tail of the fly down into the water.

 

[redietz]

Don't forget that the leader has something to do with how the fly floats. The fact that you're hanging it over edge of a bowl or leaving it off might be might be most of the problem.

The hackle length is not the problem. Although modern fashion is to make it shorter, classic Catskill proportions were 1.5 to 2 x the width of the gape. They rode just fine back then.

Neither is the fact that hackles aren't 90 degrees to the hook shank the problem. Vince Marinaro's thorax flies were deliberately tied that way, and didn't have any reputation of not floating correctly.

If you want to muck with proportions, try to get less weight on top of the hook compared to what's under it -- a thinner hump, less dense wings and a heavier hook might all be things to look at.

Personally, I wouldn't worry to much about it. Fish often prefer cripples, and a number of flies nowadays are tied make sure they lie on their side.

 

[afishinado]

YokMonster,

Dropping flies into a bowl of water is a poor way to judge how/if a fly will float. Try tying them on your tippet and actually fish them. The humpies you tied in the pics are fine. On the water, they should float like a cork. Good job.

 

[FrequentTyer]

redietz wrote:
The hackle length is not the problem. Although modern fashion is to make it shorter, classic Catskill proportions were 1.5 to 2 x the width of the gape. They rode just fine back then.

Neither is the fact that hackles aren't 90 degrees to the hook shank the problem. Vince Marinaro's thorax flies were deliberately tied that way, and didn't have any reputation of not floating correctly.

Good points Redietz, but there are a couple of things you need to keep in mind with those examples. Many (not all) Catskill tyers shifted their wings and hackle back on the hook, and some (not all) claimed to do this to shift the mass back and force the fly to ride on it's tail and hackle. They were also obsessive about tailing material and hackle quality. So you can tie a fly with a 2x or greater hackle length, but you need to make other changes for it to float properly. Vince Marinaro did indeed deliberately tie his thorax duns with the hackle crossing at a 45 degree angle. But he was a meticulous tyer. He did this to get an x-like profile that provided 2 points of contact (like outriggers). He also would clip a V out of the bottom of the hackle collar to increase this effect. Lastly, he also moved the wings and hackle back on the fly to shift the center of mass. In his case, he was trying to prevent the fly from riding on its tail, and I don't think this effect could be achieved with a "standard" wound hackle collar.
Youghness, I'm convinced that the hackle is the problem. I bet if you cut a V from the bottom of the hackle collar the fly will sit upright. If that works you at least know what to focus on to fix the problem.

afishinado wrote:
Dropping flies into a bowl of water is a poor way to judge how/if a fly will float. Try tying them on your tippet and actually fish them. The humpies you tied in the pics are fine. On the water, they should float like a cork. Good job.

I thought from his original post that he was having problems on the stream and that's why he resorted to dropping them in a bowl of water. I agree that this is a poor way to judge if the fly floats well on the stream. There are plenty of factors that will alter the float on the stream. But a fly that flops over in a bowl is unlikely to be "fixed" by those factors. So while this fly might float like a cork and catch fish , it does not float like a humpy.

 

[delta_dog]

Well I started to post my thoughts on this yesterday but wanted to include some pics so I figured I would copy and paste what I started after I got some pics. Well I got busy and finally got around to it today so here it is.

I have a few suggestion's for you. First off get rid of the water. Creek water and tap water are like oil and alcohol. Tap water has softeners in it and your flies will break the surface film easier. Second is what I do most often when I tie Catskill style flies. I do the bounce test after EVERY Catskill style dry I tie. What's the bounce test? After tying a fly I throw it up in the air and let it bounce on the table and it should land hook point down. If it dosent I cut either a shallow "v" or a deep "V" in the hackle in line with the hook point. Shallow or Deep depends on the fly and the material used. In the first pic the fly on the right has a deep "V" and the fly on the left has a shallow "v" In pic 2 you can see they both sit the same. I've never had a problem using this method.

 

[YoughnessMonster]

Thank you all so much for your input. The HUMP and wings are actually bleached elk hair. I am going to continue to attempt to aid my flies. I welcome the criticism, it is a big help.

 

[YoughnessMonster]

Also the hook is a size 12 TMC 100

 

[JeffK]

All the comments above are valid. I like the cutting a vee approach. The fly looks pretty good to me.