Help with casting bigger streamers

[Fishwagen]

Ok, I have a beginners question for you all. I recently started fly fishing and feel I have gotten pretty good with some of the casting basics and have been doing my best to improve.

Recently I have been casting some bigger streamer patterns and some more "weighted" flys to go after some small mouths at a little deeper depth.

No here's the question...as I begin my forward cast I can really feel the streamer "hang" back and can feel the tip of the rod load a lot more. So I am thinking increased weight on the pattern, so I try to time it better, more often than not it feels like someone is snapping a "rubber band" on the backcast and as I present the fly, it all comes down short and usually in a mess.

If I drop back to a dry or a smaller wet, cast looks perfect and I get the results I want.

Working with a 6wt 8'6" Hobbs Creek rod, with a 9' 5X tapered leader and this is occurring with #8's and up.

Now is it 1. ME (The usual suspect)
2. The Leader (too light too long)
3. The Rod (I know its a more of a starter rod)

Hopefully I have given you enough to help in this endeavor. Just cant seem to figure it out.

Thanks

 

[J55tyger88]

I have the same setup, and a really awesome mentor and friend from this sight is helping me out with my own bad habits with casting. I had this same question come up last week and he mentioned a shorter leader and to slow your cast down a bit. I applied to onstream practice and it definately helped.

 

[Fishwagen]

Thanks for the advise. I remembered reading "the deeper the fly, the shorter the leader" during my reflection on this. I will try it. I already knew I was rushing the forward cast.

It kills me I am patient w the lighter ones and w a little weight back there, I am just "banging" it all over the place.

 

[J55tyger88]

Yeah i know what you mean. I also noticed a shorter leader is better for roll casts too.

I was rushing my forward cast and then slamming my finger on the line and my fly would just slam the water and almost come back toward me right before it hit. Not the best for spooky fish...

 

[krayfish]

You guys already covered what I was going to say....slow it down a bit and that should solve the "snapping" feeling you're getting.

* shorter leader will be easier to cast

* longer leader will allow the fly to get deeper quicker

There's always some type of trade off with this sport.

 

[BelAirSteve]

Maybe related to your casting problem, but it seems to me a 5x tippet is too light for bigger streamers, particularly for smallies. I use 4 lb. test mono for my smallmouth tippet. Google Harry Murray's smallmouth leader forumla - that should get you started - or just buy some from his site.

 

[J55tyger88]

but it seems to me a 5x tippet is too light for bigger streamers,

I thought that too, but assuming you snip your leader down from 9' to round 7' or 6' it would give you a heavier line right?

 

[Fishwagen]

That was my next thought as well. When I was having the problem yesterday I had just tied on a fresh section of 5x and then then a black bugger. Worked just fine, but as I stepped up to a little more weighted cray pattern w some split shot, then the problems occurred.

There are just so many little variables that the novice has to learn in this sport. And as many have already said...experiment!

J55...your right as well, I slammed the water on a couple of casts so bad it looked like a dropped a rock from about 20'. I didn't blame the fish, I would have swam for cover too.

 

[afishinado]

First of all, a 5X tippet is way too light for casting and fishing the big heavy flies you mentioned. Drop back to 3x or even heavier.


I suggest you try a Belgian or oval cast keeping tension on the fly at all times, thus preventing the "rubber band" effect you mentioned in your OP.

Good luck.

 

[boychick]

For big heavy streamers try a 7.5' or 9' 2x leader and slow down your cast. The oval cast Afish recomended may help too.

 

[csoult]

http://howtoflyfish.orvis.com/video-lessons/13-fly-casting

 

[PhilC]

learn how to haul

 

[Swattie87]

Good advice above so far. First and easiest thing you can do is shorten your leader and use a heavier tippet section. Yeah, for a 9' 5x tapered leader just cut back the last 24 inches or so (until the line gets a little thicker) and fish from there…fixes both of those issues. For Bass/WW fishing I use regular old 10lb mono off my spinning gear spools for my tippet, and a total leader length of 6-7'.

Second thing is just to understand a little bit about the fundamentals of rod weights and their capabilities. A 5wt is an excellent all around, middle of the road freshwater stream rod and a great choice for a beginner. That said, it does have its relative sweet spots and limitations…as Kray mentioned, everything is a trade off. The basics to understand here is that there is an upper limit to the amount of weight/size of flies a 5wt rod can effectively throw. A size 8, weighted streamer (with shot on top of it) is probably approaching the upper limit of what a 5wt will throw effectively. It sounds like you have your cast down pretty well if you're casting smaller dries and wets effectively…it's really not a whole lot different with a streamer. You may very well just be approaching the upper limits of what the rod was made to do…meaning there may not be much wrong with your casting, you're just asking the rod to do something it wasn't meant to do. I fished WW for a while with an 8'6 5wt and ran into issues with my casts starting to fall apart at about the same size of flies you're talking about. I fished the 5wt like that for a while and then eventually broke down and bought a 9'0 6wt for warmwater and larger Trout applications.

 

[JackM]

If I cast a streamer with less than 4X, you can bet I was too lazy to clip my tippet. As noted.

 

[ryguyfi]

Define "big"?


If I'm specifically fishing streamers, then my leader is typically not tapered... especially not a pre made tapered leader that cost a few bucks. Just put on a 2 ft piece of 30lb mono, and then a 3-4ft section of 10-15lb mono. Short and sweet.


One common error by people is their equipment doesn't match the flies they're throwing. If I'm tossing big streamers, I'm surly not doing it with the same rod I'm throwing tiny dries with, or even nymphing a tandem rig. If your goal is to just throw streamers then have the equipment to match. If you don't have it, then make due for now, but as you add new rods and reels to your quiver make them do specific jobs instead of buying a new rod because "I don't have that weight rod yet".

 

[Fishwagen]

Thanks a lot for all the advice. I am going out tomorrow morning to try some of the "leader" suggestions. I am sure it will help.

I considered the rod as well...I am somewhat of a perfectionist when it comes to hobbies I get in to. So with all the research and reading I have done, at least "I" think my cast is pretty good. I usually never have a problem with smaller patterns and terrestrials.

Then I put a little "beef" or "weight" on to get down in the water column and target some bigger fish and my cast goes to hell...real quick.

Might try to incrementally build up size tomorrow and see where and with what the problems start to occur.

Just another reason to go fishing. Its tough but someone has to do it.

 

[PennypackFlyer]

Fishwagen...sounds like a good science project. Let us know what you find out.

 

[barbless]

I guarantee that if you cut your leader back 2'-3', matters will improve considerably.

With a sink-top line, you can go down to 3'-4'. You'll probably find that you want to trim the sink tip back to around 5', too. It depends on the stream you're fishing- if it's 3'-6' deep in the pools with some moderate current, 5' is about right. Think trig, heh.

No matter what, casting weight and/or a sink-tip line will always feel a bit clunky.

Under most conditions, a simple 6' 2x leader is fine for casting bass poppers and big streamers. But bass in the low clear water of late summer can be really spooky, especially in slow-current pools, and when the sun is on the water. They're very sensitive to line splash. It can pay off to custom build a 9'-10' 2x-3x leader capable of turning over fairly big flies (and cast the fly into faster water to start off the swing.) My experience is that I always want the leader to sink, because whether retrieving poppers or streamers, I don't want the leader to leave a wake when I pull in the line.

Leader construction is very important in fly fishing. Sometimes I combine sections of store-bought tapered leaders with custom-built butt sections and tippet (most store-bought knotless leaders have a butt section that's too thick and too long, imo.) I've found that the Fishpond leader gauge is a big help when doing this. The leader gauge is also good for checking the diameter of spools of leader material- the plain fact is that it isn't always the diameter that's on the label.

 

[Fishwagen]

After and weekend of experiments...here are the results. To all of you who suggested "shortening" the leader, you were correct. Not that I doubted you as it made good sense.

I put a few leader combos together and worked up in size and weight. All of the leaders started w 20 lb "Amnesia" at 3'...then 1x, 2x and straight 10 lb mono at 3' tied as the tippet.

I didn't care for the 10 mono as it felt too stiff. The 2x produced the best results with a perfect turnover of the streamers I was tossing. It didn't really matter the size or weight. As long as you paid attention to what you just tied on. The 1x was also good, but a little stiff as well, only good w a couple articulated bead heads I used.

I also was more patient w the back cast and paid a lot better attention to the loop before I began to move forward. I floated yesterday for about 6 hours over about 6 miles and except for a few rushed casts, I hardly noticed the issues I was experiencing the other day.

Started the day with a typical "wooly bugger" and moved up to a few big articulated "Zonkers"...used a few weighted cray patterns in between.

I also confirmed, and I kinda already knew the "basic" rod I have is a little too soft in the tip for my liking. It kinda feels slow or "held back" if that's a good way to describe it. I haven't picked up on all nuances to these rods, but compared to an Allen ATS 4 wt I also took, this one felt lazy. Much faster action on the Allen.

I appreciate everyone's time and input they have provided.