Effects of roads and paved walking trails on waterways

[larkmark]

The popularity of making trails along waterways is continuing to grow. Some are made with permeable surfaces and others are gravel and some are just asphalt paving. Another thing these trail people are doing is cutting trees for maintenance purposes and also as one official put it "to make river views" . I am not a fan of any of it to be honest but I also see some potential real problems going forward. Any thoughts?

 

[salvelinusfontinalis]

Lemme guess, the river trail?
Amirite?

 

[troutbert]

What location are you talking about?

Trails can cause many problems for streams.

Which is why in some cases, DCNR Bureau of Forestry has moved sections of trails further away from streams.

 

[lycoflyfisher]

Streamside trails are becoming extremely popular in the southeast and south central part of the state, as the riparian corridor may be the only route for pedestrian traffic. In many of those cases, the watersheds are already so heavily impacted by urban runoff and stormwater that I am not sure the trail changes things. In more pristine watersheds, it seems that a number of groups and state agencies are trying to avoid building new trails in close proximity to streams.

 

[larkmark]

I'm talking trails in general but specifically seeing increased paving with asphalt is proposed on river trail along susquehanna near Marietta and extension and paving of trails that run very close to Lackawanna River. In the case of Lackawanna, large trees were cut down in several places and the trail is very close to river in many areas. Always scratch my head when large shade trees are cut down and then are replaced with saplings.

 

[Mike]

The section of trail that is north of Columbia, Lancaster Co I believe is an exception to the more general case in SE Pa that the trails are rail-trails laid out on former railroad grades. Some are paved and some are covered in fine limestone gravel. Land clearing typically involves cutting low, overhanging branches, removing cross trail blow-downs, and cutting shrubs back to the edge of the track right-of-way. I have been on a number of these and have never seen a spot where trees and shrubs were removed to create a river view, so that must be pretty unusual.

More generally, the fisheries benefit is that they greatly improve access for anglers and for stocking vehicles when stocking is prescribed. Anglers here and elsewhere often complain for instance that stocked trout are not spread out enough. The rail-trails are of great benefit in this regard. Rail-trails often have parking lots that also enhance angler access. I can say form personal experience that rail-trails can and do result in stocked trout section extensions, the creation of DH ALO Areas, and could result in greater trout stocking rates when they considerably improve access and parking.

As for stormwater runoff effects, most sections of rail-trails that I have seen have a good buffer between them and the water. The runoff coming from them is minimal in comparison to the real sources of such problems in the affected drainage basins.

 

[larkmark]

Here is a line from an article on the Lackawanna Trail

" sturdy fences, bridges and perfectly cut river overlooks display the dedication and hard work that goes into maintaining the trail. "

A buffer of only 20 yds or less won't do much. Asphalt gets hot and water runs off.

Fisheries benefit from increased access?

The trail along portions of Susquehanna south of Columbia and extending all through Shenks Ferry was an abandoned rail bed and was there before any " improvements" were made and was a perfectly nice and very cool and shady place to walk. It was a tunnel through the trees with nice native Mountain Mint and was a great place to see all sorts of butterflies and birds. Now with all the trees gone it is a hot gravel rd. with a metal fence running for much of its length. I see it all as a big waste of money and damaging to the overall environment. Once that rail trail went in the adjacent landowners of course had to heavily post their land because of the additional traffic. Paving it is absurd. What is the reason? Race track for bikes I guess.
And who gets to pay for it all?

 

[Fly-Swatter]

larkmark,

I hear what you are saying. In principle I think you are right. However, at least in the case of the Lack, any trail along the river in the balance only helps the river.

Here is why I say this: Improved access to the trail system increases the number of people (ie, per week) who look at the river. There are runners, cyclists, and folks just strolling during nice weather. This is especially true in Spring when the first few warm days grace us. Do you know what they see? Trash. All the crap from the Carbondale through Old Forge corridor that accumulated throughout the Fall and Winter. I've seen large amounts of tarp strung for a hundred yards in trees 15 feet off the river. It's a huge eye sore and really not good for the ecosystem in and along the river. More people out trying to enjoy the scenery means more people who give a damn about the trash.

Regarding percolation and heat sinks, the Lakc has WAY, WAY, WAYYYYY greater sources of this: All the urban/suburban blacktop along the entire river below Simpson, all the strips, shopping centers and View mont Mall, I81, and so on. Look at the USGS CFS readings during and after decent rains. Huge spike then huge drop. This means little percolation, quick runoff. Paving an eight foot wide ribbon along the river is not even a drop in the bucket (pun intended) compared to the total effects of these things.

In my opinion, of course.

PS: All that said, I would rather they put gravel in rather than pavement for the trail.

 

[salvelinusfontinalis]

shady mountain mint walks


Shady places to walk in the tunnel of trees, lined with mountain mint :lol:
We got it.

The Lackawanna Trail has brought so much awareness to the river i hardly see it as a negative.
I mirror what Fly-Swatter has said

 

[larkmark]

Salvellinus- That is funny to you? I guess you like when they take all the wildness and beauty out of nature and destroy habitat and build barriers and put a wide road of gravel down with a metal fence. I guess you are another of those who see that as improvement. I will also add that the edges of the trail are regularly sprayed with herbicide to keep them tidy. Nice touch.

Flyswatter-The Lackawanna definitely will not be helped by awareness. It recovered without ANY awareness if you are honest. Why is it an improvement to bring more people to every inch of a river? And yes that asphalt is just crazy. I saw spots where it is going to be very close to river. Why not do something about the runoff from all these other sources? Why create more even if it is as you say minimal. Why cut down trees along river?

This whole attitude that we can and should improve on nature is wrongheaded but seems to be embraced by a lot of people. It really is sad. Trails , roads, fences...enough already!

Leave things alone or plant trees.

Just my view of course.

 

[Fly-Swatter]

larkmark wrote:
Why is it an improvement to bring more people to every inch of a river?

This whole attitude that we can and should improve on nature is wrongheaded but seems to be embraced by a lot of people. It really is sad.

That's...not what I said. :roll:

This link may help fill in some info gaps: Lackawanna River Citizens Water Quality Handbook

 

[salvelinusfontinalis]

Fox,

What is funny is previously banned forum members that blather on about the same ol' subjects verbatim like no one will notice. :
But i think you knew that, didnt you.

Of course mother nature left alone will heal the earth. Fortunately we as a species are still here and some of us prefer that we speed up recovery rather than waiting 1000 years for it to happen.
Be nice if our kids had more than us, ya know the American dream.

Generally speaking i agree that trees should not be removed but also generally speaking not all conservation or recreational projects are bad. They arent created equal and to try and label them as such, as you have done in the past, is well silly for a better word.

The Lackawanna River is an amazing place but you couldnt be more wrong about it "recovering on its own". So many mitigation projects have been done on it to help speed up recovery , that if not done, you wouldnt care one iota about it enough to make a second screen name.

Having spent much time there and talking with locals, they didnt respect the river enough to even consider not throwing trash over the banks.

It is slowly changing thanks to the efforts of the LRCA.
Great organization.

Id post links, but you cant teach a new dog new tricks. Not even enough to change their own verbage on incessant ramblings to hide their identities.

This has been gone over ad nauseam, i see no reason to continue.

 

[lycoflyfisher]

I believe that I saw much of the newly planned trail extensions along the Lackawanna will be on top of existing flood control levees. Where the levees exist, riparian trees are not exactly common... Lots of WMD treatment and remining has occurred with more planned. Extra attention to the river will likely lead to less trash and perhaps gain momentum at a grassroots level to take on the monstrosity of CSOs... Addressing the sewer overflows will take massive investment and buyin from the local electorate will likely be needed.

 

[Fly-Swatter]

Sal & Lyco: Agreed. The PA 2020 River of the Year deserves no less.

 

[larkmark]

You guys might want to do some research about when and how those trout showed up. It was long before any of your so called mitigation efforts began. The role of mine water and even wastewater treatment outflow is a lot more complex than you might imagine. And as for taming nature and grooming it for walkers and how you all view that as an improvement or that more attention to streams means things will get better, I would mostly disagree.

 

[salvelinusfontinalis]

https://www.flyfisherman.com/editorial/pennsylvanias-waking-giant-the-lackawanna-river/329427

:lol:
Those dang sewer and stormwater efforts! Should have left it alone!!!!

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

For me, the Lackawanna stands as the blueprint for how a river heals. As Dr. Ian Malcolm said in Jurassic Park, “Life finds a way.” Yes, some initial aid was needed, just as every toddler needs a helping hand to make their first steps. But for the most part, the river benefited greatly by being undisturbed.

The Lackawanna is a made man trout fishery today. Without the efforts of many, it wouldnt be what it is now. Context is important. What you say has validity but left to heal as you would of had it, the river wouldnt hardly hold a trout.
It is just silly to be a critic of those efforts.

 

[salvelinusfontinalis]

Almost forgot.

 While transformed into something previous generations would have never imagined, the river is still facing potential threats. Harvesting, illegal dumping, flood control projects, fracking, accidental industrial spills, siltation, and rock salt and road runoff all pose possible threats to the waterway. Endless efforts by the Lackawanna Valley chapter of Trout Unlimited and the Lackawanna River Conservation Association keep these factors at bay and preserve this magnificent natural resource.

Those dang pesky organizations.
I would be willing to bet, the LCRA in particular, likely get volunteers and members because of the rail trail.


For anyone interested, ive been fishing the Lack a long time.
The LCRA has links to the access points, if you couple it with a Rand McNally map of Scranton you can find your way around easily and have a good large map of the river.

I like to mark mine with structure , holes and fish caught.
Great resource.

 

[larkmark]

There is alot of info in that article that is not exactly true but overall not bad. Those who may now take credit for creating a River of the Year are just Johnny come lately types looking for recognition and the reality is that like many places all the monkeying around by man has done more harm than good. The sections that have received "improvement" devices are worse off than they were years ago. Now increased attention because of articles and trails will likely degrade the fishing I predict and have already witnessed. In a few years you can enjoy catching little hot dog length trout just like Spring Creek.

 

[larkmark]

If you ever want to see an example of what paved roads can do to a stream just look at kettle creek. Areas that are close to roads show the widening and washouts and erosion. As you get away from roads the habitat improves. This is true on Cross Fork Creek too. If you want to see an example of what popularizing natural areas and creating walking trails along streams can do take a look at Tucquan in southern Lancaster county. Similarly look at trails along Kellys Run or Trout Run.

 

[salvelinusfontinalis]

:lol: comparing small forested freestone streams to a mid size city river? :lol:

https://abingtonwastewater.org/management/lackawanna-river-information/

Nothing like being told to research things you have already spent years doing, have a million links, articles and clippings on. You should go to the libraries up there and really dig.
I have.

I dont know what you think is inaccurate but it would be nice if you would just say it and offer up some creditable evidence rather than a just take my word for it.

I also dont know what decline in the fishery you have witnessed or where you are fishing it to witness it. I make several trips most years and have not witnessed an ounce of that nonsense.

The Lackawanna will never be Spring Creek. For one, it's habitat and depth is far better. Beyond that there is a huge drop off in 12 inch fish in areas because of cannibalism. Yep you read that right. Adam would tell you all about it.

Either way, i await your well informed and creditable evidence of anything inaccurate in how the Lackawanna Trout came to be.
Cant wait, i love that river.

This years low flows likely did some damage though.