Class A list vs Natural Repro List

[Clams]

Can anyone explain the difference between the Class A list and the Natural Reproduction list? The FBC keeps both lists updated and there's substantial overlap between the two.

The Class A Wild Trout Waters list says "Streams that support a population of naturally produced trout of sufficient size and abundance to support a long-term and rewarding sport fishery." It also says "no stocking."
https://www.fishandboat.com/Fish/PennsylvaniaFishes/Trout/Documents/classa.pdf

The Natural Repro list just says "Pennsylvania Wild Trout Waters (Natural Reproduction)."
https://www.fishandboat.com/Fish/PennsylvaniaFishes/Trout/Documents/trout_repro.pdf

They seem basically the same to me - two lists of streams that contain naturally reproducing wild trout.

What's the difference? Am I missing something??

 

[Dave_W]

The difference is how many fish they have in them. These categories are based on studies that document how many trout are found when an electrofishing search is conducted.

A stream that has been documented to have wild trout is on the Natural Repro list (all it takes is one adult and one young fish to meet this criteria). To be Class A, they need to have a lot of fish, about 40 kilograms per hectare for brown trout. This is a lot of fish.

All CA streams are on the NR list but not vice versa.

Also, note that CA streams are identifed as sections or streams within a county. The NR list is confusing because those streams are listed for the county where the mouth of the stream is located, even though the trout may be way upstream in an different county.

 

[Bamboozle]

 

[afishinado]

Dave_W wrote:
The difference is how many fish they have in them. These categories are based on studies that document how many trout are found when an electrofishing search is conducted.

A stream that has been documented to have wild trout is on the Natural Repro list (all it takes is one adult and one young fish to meet this criteria). To be Class A, they need to have a lot of fish, about 40 kilograms per hectare for brown trout. This is a lot of fish.

All CA streams are on the NR list but not vice versa.

Also, note that CA streams are identifed as sections or streams within a county. The NR list is confusing because those streams are listed for the county where the mouth of the stream is located, even though the trout may be way upstream in an different county.

Good explanation.

Rather than trying to look at lists, I've always found it easier to ID streams using the Wild Trout Map provided in the PFBC website and use the list to verify the stream.

Here is a link to the map > PFBC Trout stream Map

There is a filter for different classes of trout streams > Class A are the [color=006600]green[/color] lines and Class B>D streams are [color=333399]blue[/color] lines. Stocked streams are marked in [color=996600]tan[/color].

 

[Clams]

Thanks for the replies. The Class A list sounds like the more reliable resource.

 

[HopBack]

Thanks for the replies. The Class A list sounds like the more reliable resource

This is not the conclusion that I would draw from this conversation.

It's true that Class A streams have a larger biomass of fish but that does not guarantee the following:

1. Access to said stream
2. A higher success or catch rate
3. Size and fishability of stream
4. Size and quality of trout
5. Population stability (Class A's can crash and things change, some of the data is over 20 years old)


If you ignore the natural reproduction list then you will miss out on some true gems that often fish better than many of the Class A's you will find on the list.

Bottom line Class A streams are a great starting point but not the end all be all of lists.

 

[Bamboozle]

HopBack wrote:

Thanks for the replies. The Class A list sounds like the more reliable resource

This is not the conclusion that I would draw from this conversation.

It's true that Class A streams have a larger biomass of fish but that does not guarantee the following:

1. Access to said stream
2. A higher success or catch rate
3. Size and fishability of stream
4. Size and quality of trout
5. Population stability (Class A's can crash and things change, some of the data is over 20 years old)


If you ignore the natural reproduction list then you will miss out on some true gems that often fish better than many of the Class A's you will find on the list.

Bottom line Class A streams are a great starting point but not the end all be all of lists.

This ^^^

If I had a nickel for every trout I caught on a NON-Class A Natural Reproduction Stream I'd be rich.

If I had to give back one of those nickels for every fish I didn't catch on a Class A, I'd be broke.

 

[kb3lms]

So, I have a question. How does PFBC decide that a stream is Class A? And, how often is it verified? Is it a once and done thing or do they check every so many years?

The reason I ask is that there is a Class A really near where I live that is supposed to contain Browns and I haven't seen a single fish (any fish) in it in the last month - which is the only time I have started looking. I've tried fishing it (it's pretty small) and came up empty, but that may have much more to do with my lack skills and practice than lack of fish.

 

[salmonoid]

With finite funds, PFBC can't resurvey every stream every few years.
Heck, there are so many streams that some of them have never been assessed (although they are working hard to fix that). So if a stream makes the Class A list, it's only a guarantee that during that during the survey snapshot in time, it had a Class A biomass. If conditions are such that a stream is Class A at one point in time, then there is a good chance that it will continue in that trajectory. BUT, conditions can change. Habitat can degrade, water quality can degrade, they may have just happened to sample the stream a couple of times when it had a transient population of fish that pushed the biomass to Class A, etc.

How they decide is that the stream must meet a certain biomass threshold, by species, over two consecutive surveys. Browns are 40kg/ha, brookies 30kg/ha, and rainbows are 2kg/ha (and there are combinations for mixed species as well). They shock the stream over a predetermined length, measure the fish caught, use a formula to calculate the area of the stream, and then you have the two components needed to calculate biomass per area (kg/ha).

Natural reproduction list generation is similar, except the threshold is not based on biomass, but the presence of two distinct year classes of trout.

FWIW, I've found Class A wild brown trout streams to have a moody personality. Sometimes, the fish are so prevalent, you can't keep them off your line. And the next outing, you take a skunk. Hence, I never write off a Class A brown stream the first or second time I fish it and come up empty-handed.

There are a few streams that do get resurveyed. They often show up in the Biologist Report section of the PFBC, or are your major well-known streams, like Penns Creek or Spring Creek.

 

[Mike]

Swamp Ck and its unnamed trib in and near Bechtelsville, respectively, are classified Class A, but have not been surveyed since perhaps 1985 or so. The lower limit is the dam in Bechtelsville. I have not seen that many changes in the drainage basin that would suggest a reason for a decline, although at the very lower end of the Swamp Ck stretch erosion in the meadows suggests that there might be some sedimentation in stream channel itself, which could cause a decline. Brown trout are pretty tolerant, however.

 

[kb3lms]

Thanks for the info. I didn't know if they did it by electrofishing or what. I'd believe the 1985 date, though. My wife tells me that a state truck stops at the bridge near our house a few times a year to do water tests.

My friends and I caught trout in the creek when we were kids, but that was in the early 1970's.

To give credit where due, however, the Swamp Creek water quality has improved greatly over the years. There used to be raw septic overflow pipes running into the creek. Thanks to DCNR or PFBC or whoever at the state, that is all gone and the water seems pristine.

The area down at the dam in town is a swampy mess, but the rest of the creek is the best it has ever been i my opinion.

 

[Brown71]

To piggyback off of hopback and bamboozle's posts, that is my exact thought train also.

The Class A list is a nice starting point, but the natural reproduction list is WELL worth exploring.

In my very local area, there is 2 and maybe 3 streams that are on the NR list not on the Class A list that fish as well/better than some of the local Class A's.

 

[sarce]

I'll add that if you identify a stream that you want to fish via the Class A list, check it out on maps/Google Earth first. Some of the Class A streams are really tiny and if you get the sense from the maps that this could be the case, you might be better off fishing elsewhere. If a stream looks sizeable, say at least 15-20 ft wide, and it's on the class A list, those tend to be pretty good in my experience. Once you get smaller than that it's hard to tell the difference between class A and other classes of wild trout streams, when it comes to the quality of fishing. Always some exceptions, though, and as others have said, there's no substitute for putting in the miles on the water.

 

[troutbert]

Some Class A and other wild trout streams are on posted land.

But there are also many on public lands.

 

[jifigz]

I've fished class A streams that have been a complete and utter disappointment. One stream in particular is even touted in a certain book as being fantastic and I've been let down every time there. I've given that stream maybe 5 or 6 tries. Some of my favorite wild trout waters are on the natural reproduction list and not the Class A list.

Explore and find the good waters. Class A, Natural Reproduction, or no list at All there are good waters on all of the lists and busts on each one too.