Chances for a wild tiger trout?

[wildtrout2]

I've always wondered if every stream that holds both native brookies and wild browns has at least one wild tiger trout, or more in it? I know the odds of this occurring in the wild are slim, and I know the odds of catching a wild tiger are even more slim, but do you think they at least exist in all of these types of streams? How about the browns to brookie ratio playing a role?
I'd put catching a wild tiger trout up there with hitting some sort of a lottery. I just find the whole wild tiger trout thing fascinating.

 

[Dave_W]

It is indeed a fascinating question.

I've noted on the forum before that I've been fishing small freestone streams in PA for over forty years and I have never so much as seen a wild tiger trout.

There does seem to be some evidence, mainly anecdotal, that suggests that they are a somewhat more prevalent in central and NC PA and less common in SCPA and other areas. There also seems to be some view that they turn up more in streams with more brookies and fewer browns.

There are some streams that have some reputation for producing WTT and they turn up from time to time in electro-fishing surveys, although this seems to be pretty rare.

It's a popular forum topic for discussion.

 

[wbranch]

I caught a 17.4" tiger on the WB of the Delaware about 10 years ago. I wrote a letter to the NYS fisheries department and a biologist told me that in the NY/PA border waters it would be extremely rare to have a naturally occurring wild Tiger trout. He told me it was more likely that my Tiger had been stocked into a PA and had left the stream it was stocked in and swam into the WB. I caught it at least ten miles from the closest PA stocked stream that entered the WB.

That being said one time I was on a small NYS stream called Mongaup Creek and it was October. The stream was narrow and very clear. I could clearly see a redd and in the redd was a brook trout with a brown trout hovering slightly above and behind the fish in the redd. Did they mate? Maybe.

 

[Solitariolupo]

If you want wild tigers go to Wisconsin or Michigan. PA waters doesn’t fluctuate enough for them to make wild tigers it would be really tough for the extra chromosomes.

 

[mushumatt]

As Dave has said if your looking for a wild tiger focus your attention on those central and north central streams. Focus on streams that have a larger population of Brooks then browns. I have not been able to catch any tigers. But there are a few streams in that region that regularly produce wild tigers.

 

[wbranch]

For anyone interested read this Wiki about Tiger Trout and particularly the heading "Wild Tiger Trout".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiger_trout

 

[Prospector]

I’ve read where hatchery success using brown trout eggs with brook trout milt is in the 5% range. The hatchery can increase those odds up to 85% by artificially introducing a heat process that I suspect wouldn’t happen in nature.

So what are the odds of a brown and a brook choosing each other to mate. Not sure how to quantify, but if there are zero in that stream then there are 0 tiger trout in that year class.

Let’s say there is 1 brown/brook pair in that stream. The average brown trout lays 900 eggs per pound. In a wild trout stream let’s assume the brown weighs 1/2 pound and lays 450 eggs.

Likely some eggs will be consumed by fish, other aquatic life, birds or mammals before they hatch (I have no idea how to determine but I’ll guess a conservative 40% loss). That leaves 270 eggs.

Of the eggs that remain, 5% will hatch a tiger trout (based on hatchery success data). This leaves 13.5 tiger trout to reach the Alevins stage. After a time these become Parr.

In the Alevins and Parr stage, many will be consumed by fish, other aquatic life, birds or mammals (typical losses are 95% as reported by trout organizations). Only 5% of young tiger trout survive past 1 year. That leaves 0.675 tiger trout per year to reach 1 year of age. So one fingerling tiger trout every 2 years.

Every so often a tiger trout will grow bigger than 6 inches. For the sake of argument, I’ll say 1 every 10 year reaches a catchable size.

And that is likely overstated if you feel that a brown and a brook may only get together in a given stream 1 out of every 10 years. Then it suggests you might see only 1 tiger trout of 6 inches or larger only once in 100 years.

It is an interesting question posed by the OP

 

[RLeep2]

>>If you want wild tigers go to Wisconsin or Michigan. PA waters doesn’t fluctuate enough for them to make wild tigers it would be really tough for the extra chromosomes. >>

I'm not sure what the "fluctuate" part of this means, but I'd agree at least for a given window in time, I ran into more wild tigers in Wisconsin than I ever did in PA.

During a 4-5 year period when Wisconsin was deliberately trying to establish (or re-establish..) brook trout in some of their pretty high abundance brown trout streams through the use of feral brook trout fingerlings, I caught 3 or maybe it was 4 tigers that based on size (all under 9"), appearance and stream setting, I was pretty sure were wild.

In a lot of years tramping small stream in NW and NC Pa., I got one. This was in a small stream in the Loyalsock drainage. It was maybe 6 1/2 inches.

I know barely enough about how this stuff works to even have an opinion, but I'd think that as a matter of common sense, there would be a better chance for a wild tiger in streams with pretty robust but balanced populations of both brooks and browns. This, I'd think would at the least increase the chances of the cross occurring in the wild, etc.

And it may be that one (of perhaps many..) reasons why tigers are so rare in the wild is the natural tendency of one species to dominate in a given stream section or setting. This too would make sense to me as it would lower the odds of a successful cross or natural accident..

 

[wildtrout2]

RLeep2 wrote:
>>If you want wild tigers go to Wisconsin or Michigan. PA waters doesn’t fluctuate enough for them to make wild tigers it would be really tough for the extra chromosomes. >>

I'm not sure what the "fluctuate" part of this means, but I'd agree at least for a given window in time, I ran into more wild tigers in Wisconsin than I ever did in PA.

During a 4-5 year period when Wisconsin was deliberately trying to establish (or re-establish..) brook trout in some of their pretty high abundance brown trout streams through the use of feral brook trout fingerlings, I caught 3 or maybe it was 4 tigers that based on size (all under 9"), appearance and stream setting, I was pretty sure were wild.

In a lot of years tramping small stream in NW and NC Pa., I got one. This was in a small stream in the Loyalsock drainage. It was maybe 6 1/2 inches.

I know barely enough about how this stuff works to even have an opinion, but I'd think that as a matter of common sense, there would be a better chance for a wild tiger in streams with pretty robust but balanced populations of both brooks and browns. This, I'd think would at the least increase the chances of the cross occurring in the wild, etc.

And it may be that one (of perhaps many..) reasons why tigers are so rare in the wild is the natural tendency of one species to dominate in a given stream section or setting. This too would make sense to me as it would lower the odds of a successful cross or natural accident..

The balance of brooks to browns upping the odds does make sense, but I don't know how common. The stream I caught my only wild tiger on, I had been fishing for 7 years and only ever caught natives, before I caught my first wild brown. I have since only caught 3 others. So, it makes me wonder about how important ratio is.
This kind of stuff intrigues me.

 

[WildTigerTrout]

I have caught two wild tigers. They were both caught in the same stream. I caught the first one three times over a period of two years (2008 and 2009)and the second one I caught twice over 14 months (2009 and 2010). The smallest was about 9 inches and the big one was 14 inches! I have never won a dime with the lottery!

 

[FrankTroutAngler]

I've caught two wild tiger trout this year (May 8th & May 26th). Both were 5" long. One was in Huntingdon County and the other one was in Clinton County. The stream in Huntingdon County produced one other wild tiger trout for me about 35 years ago.

Both were caught in non-stocked streams that have only a token population of wild brown trout. I've caught 23 wild tiger trout in my life (40+ years of fishing) and the common thread is that virtually all of them were caught in streams with very few wild brown trout.

This is strictly a guess, but it's possible that the female wild brown trout in those types of streams have a hard time finding a male wild brown to spawn with and thus end up with a male native brookie.

I don't know how to post photos on here, but if you go to my Facebook page "Frank Nale" and look at my posts on May 12th and May 31st you will see photos of the two little wild tigers I caught this year.

By the way, several years ago I actually caught two 5"- 6" wild tiger trout in one stream about 50 yards apart within about a five minute time span. I wonder what the odds were of that? I caught a little wild brown in between the two tigers. That particular stream had yielded several wild tigers to me in the past as well as one to my brother while we fished together. Again, this stream has only a token population of wild brown trout.

A few years ago I caught a little wild tiger trout in a small mountain stream and later got word that Ken Undercoffer caught one in the same stream maybe a month after me. I'd guess it was the same trout since they are so rare.

 

[wildtrout2]

Very interesting post Frank! You have some amazing luck. You describe the stream I was fishing accurately with the ratio. It just played with my head after catching no browns for 7 years after getting my tiger.

Funny you posted those dates, I also caught my wild tiger on May 8th. It was the same year I caught my biggest native, a 13.5" beauty.

 

[lycoflyfisher]

I don't have much to add to the wild tiger discussion, but j recently saw Frank post on Facebook about catching his 300,000th trout on a spinner. In the pictures he included a description of his fishing history as a spinner fisherman and a few notable milestones along the way. I just wanted to add that I enjoyed the post and that Everytime I read one of your photostories I am inspired by your record keeping. If for only the purpose of recounting memorable days a field those records are priceless, used as data to plan a trip based on time of year, water conditions, weather, etc those notes are invaluable.

 

[dryflyguy]

I've also been impressed with Franks record keeping over a long time span like that.

When I started FF 40 years ago, I kept a fishing log for the first couple years. Then just gradually got away from it.
I can remember fishing late into the evening - sometimes not getting off the stream until 10 pm or later. Then needing to get to where I'm camping, and then getting a late dinner.
And after all that, just ready to hit the sack - and not wanting to be bothered by writing down the days events.

Anyhow, looking back now, it would be kinda neat to have all that info logged.

Back to the topic of this post, I can't recall ever catching a wild tiger trout. Although, when I was new to the sport, I might have without realizing what it was.

I have caught a some stocked ones. Most notably, a gorgeous colored holdover of about 13 inches, from millstone creek in the ANF.

And one year, I caught like a half dozen or so from Dunbar creek and the Yough river. Must have been quite a few in the hatchery allotment for that area then.

 

[Prospector]

lycoflyfisher wrote:
I don't have much to add to the wild tiger discussion, but j recently saw Frank post on Facebook about catching his 300,000th trout on a spinner. In the pictures he included a description of his fishing history as a spinner fisherman and a few notable milestones along the way. I just wanted to add that I enjoyed the post and that Everytime I read one of your photostories I am inspired by your record keeping. If for only the purpose of recounting memorable days a field those records are priceless, used as data to plan a trip based on time of year, water conditions, weather, etc those notes are invaluable.

That certainly is impressive to catch 300,000 trout in a lifetime and not even on one offering. You not only need to be a really good fisherman but you have to get out a lot. To get that many you have to fish 40 years, 250 days per year and average 30 per day. I’m really happy if I catch thirty 5 or 6 times per year.

 

[larkmark]

Caught two in my life. I have no idea if they were stocked. One was in Delaware by Deposit. Other was in a stocked stream that has tribs with both Brook and Brown Trout.

Does NY or PA actually intentionally raise Tigers for stocking? I am not clear on that?

 

[troutbert]

I've caught several wild tiger trout.

The first time I was pretty excited about it.

But after that the novelty quickly wore off. They are small and not very colorful.

Catching a wild, colorful 9 inch brook trout is more interesting to me than catching a wild tiger trout.

If you fish freestone streams with a mix of wilds brookies and browns, you have a chance of catching them. Other than that, I can't think of anything else to improve your odds.

 

[jifigz]

I've fished a lot of brookie streams with browns thrown in and have been even SEEN a tiger trout, stocked or wild. I mean in person, of course I've seen pics here but....

 

[jifigz]

wildtrout2 wrote:
I've always wondered if every stream that holds both native brookies and wild browns has at least one wild tiger trout, or more in it? I know the odds of this occurring in the wild are slim, and I know the odds of catching a wild tiger are even more slim, but do you think they at least exist in all of these types of streams? How about the browns to brookie ratio playing a role?
I'd put catching a wild tiger trout up there with hitting some sort of a lottery. I just find the whole wild tiger trout thing fascinating.

I don't believe so of the PFBC would probably list them. They tell you what they stock where and raise at each hatchery and, shoot, they used to even tell you how much it cost at each hatchery to raise 1 on of trout, etc and they still might. But if they intentionally raised/stocked them they would publicize it and it would be one more draw to people, you know, like golden rainbows and Keystone Select waters. Lol

 

[Out4Trout]

One of my favorite fish I ever caught was this tiger in Mud Run. Although I have seen more wild browns this year than in the past for the most part the section I fish is dominated by brooks so I would believe the theory of a brookie dominated stream that also holds a few wild browns would be the correct scenario to produce a wild tiger.

This is the only wild one I have ever had the privilege of catching and if I never catch another one as long as I live, I will remember this one and be happy.

I plan on having a replica of this one made for my tying bench.