camera settings

Chaz

Chaz

Active member
Joined
Sep 13, 2006
Messages
8,454
I know there are quite a few of you who use cameras on stream often. My question for you guys is, what ISO do you use, auto, or do you select a setting? A lot of photos that I think should be very good often come out washed out, and I think it is because of this setting.
Also do any of you use raw as your default setting for the format?
 
I'm just learning my new camera (Canon SX-20). It's technically a point and shoot, but it has the option of a lot of manual controls like an SLR. What it lacks, compared to SLR, is RAW capability and you can't use filters, plus the lens doesn't grab quite as much light (but still way more than a regular point and shoot). Since I've only had it a month or so and am still studying higher level photography, take the following for what its worth.

My first thought is flash. With my old camera, it always wanted to use flash on fish pics, and they'd come out washed out. No flash! You're kind of screwed at dusk with a point and shoot, there's just no way to get enough light in to bring out the colors without flash, unless your exceptionally steady handed and use long shutter times.

Generally been using the auto ISO. From the review process before I bought the camera, it seems the auto is much better from some manufacturers than from others, mine is a Canon and it does excellent. In low light conditions, I will manually raise the ISO, but thats about it, the high light pictures look fine on auto. Yes, too high an ISO setting for the conditions will result in a washed out look. What brand/model is the camera? A lot of sites have good reviews and explain what the camera is choosing for various conditions if left on auto, maybe you can get a good indication of whats going on that way.

No, I don't use RAW, that was one SLR-like option my camera doesn't have and I knew that ahead of time. Seemed to me that jpeg gives you a better initial image, but RAW leaves more room for secondary touchup via photoshop or other software. So if you're looking for real professional quality and willing to spend the time touching up the images, RAW is the way to go, but if you just want pictures without the hassle, stick with jpeg.

On mine, frankly I've gotten my best results from the canned categories. Landscape, sunset, portrait, foliage, etc. This is basically auto with a bias towards certain settings. I suppose I have done best with these because I'm not good enough in full manual mode, yet.

All that said, this will not be a stream camera. I'm in the market after losing my fishing camera. With expected expenses coming up, it might have to wait until Christmas.....
 
My expertise is on cameras that don't have batteries, but some of that can still translate to modern robocameras...

Unless you have a specific need for an extreme ISO (at either ends, the slowest or the fast), then just let it pick auto. Like so many other modes, it'll opt for the best fit. The same thing holds true for most other functions, like fstop or shutter speed. I'm fully capable of understanding and utilizing the functions of a camera down to the finest detail, but a point and shoot is so named because its best at that: Pointing and shooting. it lives mostly in Program mode. Occasionally, I'll set the pre-defined modes to something more fitting, if I know I'm trying to accomplish something a little more indepth... IE, if its night and I'm just setting the camera up, why wouldn't I use night mode? Or if I'm going to take a landscape, or be at the shore...

Flash, on the other hand, is a little different. I do know when to use it for primary lighting, for fill, or not at all. This is probably a learned ability, but my suggestion is when you're in a place where you've got the time (ie, not a fish dying in your hands), try two pictures one with and one without. Eventually, you'll start to see the differencecs between when it washes it out and when it helps. The basic rule of thumb is if you don't want shadows, then you want flash. If a little shadow isn't a problem, just turn the flash off. The camera may be smarter than you for taking a picture of a scene, but it doesn't know what that scene is supposed ot look like.

Robocamera's two missions are something in focus, and everything at an equal exposure value (aka, Zone V, or 18% Kodak Grey...). Remembering this fact, and using the focus point to your advantage (I hate when it picks a focus point for me, I almoast always lock it down to the little center piece, and then lock focus and move my view around) plus keeping in mind that it wants to average the entire exposed value can really help you.

You should focus on (ah-ha!) the following:
Good composition: Make sure its interesting. Be aware of what you want in frame, and what you don't want in frame. Messy backgrounds take away from the impact, and something as simple as a different angle can help you tremendously. Get up and walk, move and see what looks different and better.

Limitations of equipment: Specifically, shutter lag time. How long if you put the camera up, and press the button and hold it does it take to take the photo? How about if you pre-lock the focus on something and keep it half-pressed and locked? How quickly can you be ready to go, and what settings on the camera effect this.

Long shutter lag makes taking action photos suck. But, if its a matter of pressing halfway to lock the focus on, then waiting for the decisive moment, that makes it easier.

An example.. This weekend, I did a shore fishing trip with some friends. I set the camera's program modes to Surf and Snow, because it'll help the camera overcompensate its light meter to take into effect all the bright light reflected off hte sand. I left the flash off, because I didn't care (and it cut down on lag), and took pictures. At one point, i wanted to catch my friend as he did a visually impressive (and technically incorrect) cast, so I figured out a good vantage point, set the zoom (focal) length that i wanted and half-pressed to pre-focus on him. When he was launching into that cast, I pressed the rest of the way and caught him witht he rod fully loaded in a pretty awesome arc. Because I had taken a moment ahead of time to get my vantage point, I had no other fishers around him, no disturbing foreground junk, just the man isolated against the ocean, and in mid-cast and well-exposed because I knew all that sand would raise the light and thus cause the internal meter to under-expose everything (if I didn't try and help it out) to that 18% reflectivity.

If I were more motivated, I might have switched to time priority to take advantage of getting the movement, but I wasn't thinking. In hind sight, that's about the only time in recent memory that I felt the urge to use my PnS in such a manner, and likely it will be for quite some time.
 
RAW is nice... but huge
unless you have a specific reason for shooting RAW, shoot the highest quality jpeg

shoot the lowest ISO that your situation can allow

post some of your "washed out mistakes" to see if it is you ISO, shutter speed, ap, or whatever

i shoot a range of settings on both point and shoot and DSLR...
sometimes hard to tell the difference- collection of stuff I like

here are 3 different ISO of the corner of a picture on my wall
iso 64 1/2.5 F4.3
auto setting (which ended up being iso 200 1/8 F4.3)
iso 1600 1/50 F4.3

this is an olympus tough 800 point and shoot
auto everything shutter and ap
Fine (HQ) jpeg (3968x2976)
cropped image
available light, no flash

you can see the noise increase
is the noise what you are calling "washed out"?


P7130004.jpg

P7130003.jpg

P7130005.jpg
 
Crank the ISO to get more light when its dark...lower it when you have plenty of light. No need to go lower than 400. You can compensate with shutter speed aperture opening. As the pics above show the faster ISO (formerly known as "film speed" in the days of film. ) the grainier the result.
 
My advice when photographing fish is to turn off the flash even in low light and make sure your subject is in the shade. Much of the wash out you speak of is reflection of light from the fish. Either flash or sunlight, the sensors cannot anticipate it. Changing the ISO won't help the cause.....Photographing trout is like potographing tinfoil.
 
I've got a Nikon S570 12.1 mpix pnp and a eos xti slr. I've been a photog all my adult life, and I'm having the same issue with both camers. I try not to use the flash, it's off most of the time. I've tried different ISO's and I didn't like anything but auto. I'll look at some pics and post a few.
One thing I can't stand is that on the nikon there is no view finder just the dam disolay, the other thing is the shutter delay, is there a way to over-ride the delay?
 

Attachments

  • coldrun.jpg
    coldrun.jpg
    143.6 KB · Views: 4
  • Stony Rod.jpg
    Stony Rod.jpg
    135.7 KB · Views: 5
Chaz wrote:
One thing I can't stand is that on the nikon there is no view finder just the dam disolay, the other thing is the shutter delay, is there a way to over-ride the delay?

I've gotten over a lack of a viewfinder, they're never very on when you use a PnS anyways.

The display is just like a big ground glass anyways, except you don't need a loupe to focus.

As for the delay? Buy a new camera. Also, try using focus lock which is usually setup by half-pressing the shutter button to focus on a point then keeping the button half-pressed to keep the focus and exposure locked. You can also turn off any fancy focus point nonsense and just let it pick dead center.

As for those pictures? Its either white balance (good luck, I don't care to understand that carp) or you've set yourself to give additional exposure with an EV (Exposure Value, the zone system lives on!) compensation. Ensure that youd on't have the little +/- EV thingy set in either direction, OR perhaps you should see if your camera has a feature to enable automatic stepping (it does, they all do) to take a picture at the meter readnig, then +1EV and -1EV. I'll betcha you're about a step and a half overexposed.

Finally, if you have some useless little filter on the end, like the ubiquitious skylight 1a, that you think its helping to protect your lens. Its not. Its enhancing your problem. Throw it away and buy a proper lens hood.
 
Yeah, with the new camera, I'm having similar issues to your pics. Those are more severe than mine, and it doesn't always happen, but a lot of my pictures have that lack of contrast. I didn't have such a problem with the older Canon that I lost (and was supposedly a lower quality camera).

Those pics may be a little overexposed, but I don't think thats your main problem. Also, the white balance mostly effects color, and those colors look fine to me. It's contrast that is lacking in those photos. Fine detail is lost.

So for the better photography guys here, I'm interested in the answer too.

The best answer I have found is lighting. The newer camera, with the bigger lens, is more sensitive to light, and I have to pay more attention. My worst images come when the light is the brightest, it does fine indoors. I haven't actually used the lens hood, perhaps thats my problem!
 
Lens flare causes washout.

A lens element is made of glass, and and each element has two surfaces. Each surface will reflect light, and since a lens is made of multiple elements, each will reflect light, often right onto another element and then of course back again.

ef_s17~85_4~56is_usm_bd.gif


18 elements, 36 surfaces in 9 groups. Again, of those 36 elements, 34 face another element and bounce light back and forth.

So, if your earliest lens was bare glass, and reflected the worst, the next generation was a coated lens. By making a special coating, we could help cut down on the flare and reflective properties of lenses, and remove alot of the issues we're seeing here. Coated glass was a huge step forward, but its not the ultimate answer.

Next we come up with multi-coating, or multiple layers of this optical coating over lens surfaces. This is, to date, the best thing we've got to help reduce the flare and washout.

Not all coatings are equal, some are clearly better than others. Top of the pack includes Zeiss T* and Pentax SMC, widely considered the finest optical coatings in production.

I won't tell you who was always considered the worst, but at least as of a few years go it was someone who was considered the "best camera maker" by the tyros of the world.

So, multi-coating surfaces help, and it can certainly assist in what you're doing, but if coating helps cut the reflections down, what else can we do?

Less light, of course. This is where hoods come in. A hood not only helps protect your lens, but it will help cut out errant light from coming into the sides of the lens by limiting the exposed surfaces to only the lens' field of view.

Lens-Hood-KLEH-.jpg


For some lenses, this can be beneficial (ie, those with long focal lengths can benefit from a long, narrow hood) versus ones which aren't helped too much (super short focal lengths, such as top row #4, don't get much benefit). Zoom lenses are compromises on every level, requiring not only many more elements, but also a hood built to allow functionality at its widest setting.

What's another thing you can do? Throw away that stupid skylight 1A filter, or 87a, or whatever you've got on the front. All it does is add ANOTHER surface layer, often of uncoated glass. The benefits are minimal, you should learn ot use them when they'd help (going into a sandstorm, sure worry abotu things blowing into your front element).

Try to minimize shooting INTO the sun or other light sources, this just increases your issues with flare. As a Pentax user, we were always quite smug about being able to shoot our cameras into the sun versus the Canon guys who'd suffer the worst of the effects from lackluster coating through the years.

You can also buy quality lenses, specifically fixed focal lengths. This is a pretty lame answer, but its true. It also doesn't help our PnS crowd out, but guys who use SLR cameras can help themselves with quality fixed focal length lenses, which have less groups of less elments than a zoom lens.
 
Chaz

i'd say the issue is more your shot composition rather than camera issues. Both of those shots have such a range of light, the camera on auto is just trying to fin some middle ground. and the result is an exposure problem.


"cold run" look good in the bottom left of the frame. a canopied stream with sun rays coming through will take some work to look good. you can see the direct sun coming through the trees

"stony rod" looks correct in the bottom 1/4 of the frame. The top left blows out along with the back of the angler. again composition of an auto image is hurting you... the camera is trying to find a middle ground of the branches hanging from the top and bank at the bottom VS. the elements out in the sun


here are some examples...

74d72015.jpg

waterfall.jpg



similar to your "cold run"
sun shooting through the trees

e4214028.jpg


here was a super bright day
with shafts of light dappling the water
canopy2.jpg

pool.jpg

canopy.jpg
 
Ramcatt wrote:
i'd say the issue is more your shot composition rather than camera issues. Both of those shots have such a range of light, the camera on auto is just trying to fin some middle ground. and the result is an exposure problem.

Correct, this is again, because all light meters function the same way. They take an image, and then try to match to a middle tone, calibrated to Kodak 18% Grey. The entire backbone of the classic Zone System, the exposure bible of the pros, is based around this and sets that middle grey to what they called Zone V.

The basic concept was to set what YOU wanted as baseline for exposure to Zone V, and then to manipulate the settings of the camera's shutter and aperature to set this number to expose for, and then using push/pull development techniques to help allow for your tonal exposure to get the proper range in your picture.

What does this mean for you in the era of simple point and shoot? Your camera will take a reading, and then based on the settings of the camera, average them out for that 18% Zone V exposure. You can use the EV fuctionality of your camera to manipulate this (or, again, the built in program submodes which will take care of it for you without your direct intervention).

Now, to go onto Kevin's images a bit...


Both of these could take advantage of proper use of filters to help enhance things. Your first picture is a prime example of when ND (Neutral Density) filters would be used, specifically a Graduated ND.

Found in a square format (ie, the Cokin gel system), you would set your ND up to give the most of the light blocking to the top portion of the image, graduating to little or none by the bottom of it. You could have also significantly helped things with a perspective change here. At the very top, abotu 1/3rd in, is where the sun was or was just above. This point of extreme light is washing everyting out, and without using a graduated ND, simply re-orientating your view would've cut it out of the camera's metering algorythm and would've let the rest of the image look fine. Shadows and highlights are great in the bottom of the image, but that one point at the top is blowing everything out, and in my opinion (note the use of opinion, here), ruins the effect you get at the bottom while even with proper exposure provides nothing.

The second image is different, and while a graduated ND would've helped, I have the feeling a polarizing filter (speciecially a Circular Polarizer for automatic focus cameras) would've done you a huge benefit here.

Polarizing filters will help your colours show more, and darken the blue sky significantly. There's otehr ways to acheive this, such as with a heavier Skylight filter (1b or 1c, IIRC the Wratten system right), but a polarizer is a fantastic and highly useful filter to carry with you if you plan on taking alot of pictures.


Much harder, obviously the sun is part of what you need here. In Ye Olde Days, we'd have had to work in changes to the development to try and contract your zones and give you more detail in the shadows of the left trees, while preserving the details and exposure in the right side rock. Not sure what you could've done here, but if it were me, I'd have still tried exposure compenstation, polarizing (mostly useless here due to the fact that the light is front on) and maybe even gotten crafty with the graduated ND on its side, which probably would've been fail.

That all would've failed, meaning you're stuck in the darkroom trying to fix this. Or, Photoshop if you will. Dodge the sun, burn in the trees to bring out as much detail as you've captured. The failing here is that you can only bring out what you caught, meaning details will be lost somewhere.

The hip thing to do is an HDR image, then paste them together in Photochop. This would've probably have worked here, although I think HDR looks counterfit and fake, its what you got to do, I guess. I like this, BTW, alot, its just a shame you weren't able to bring it to full frution. Shooting into the sun is a pain.

edit: For those who don't know, and don't care to look it up, HDR is High Dynamic Range. Its basically two identical pictures with different exposure values, one to capture the shadows and one to capture the highlights. You then jam 'em together in a fancy piece of software to make one picture composed of both photographs, exhibiting extensive detail and colour across the whole range. Its an annoying trick that's abused into submission by Internet hacks everywhere, just like fish eye lenses.

Edit 2, Electric Boogaloo: This here is a fine example of an HDR image next to a regular photograph. While it doesn't need to look that fake, it'll always look a bit silly and surreal. That's a fine example of just what the process does and how to do it.
 
First I appreciate the look at and critique of my shots
thanks

the small images make them extremely hard to see detail (my earlier link has larger images)
also, everything was handheld

the first 2 shots... the white is clouds not blow outs
shot #2 was actually on a rainy/cloudy day

the "into the sun" shot was sunrise in the mountains of TN
i really wanted to capture where the sun was (i.e.) not framing it out (you can see a larger version on my site). That is not out of the camera and was more of an intended look... you can see everything shadows, highlights, blue sky through trees

you don't think any of my shots were HDR?
i'm not an "internet hack"?
:roll:
 
Ramcatt wrote:
First I appreciate the look at and critique of my shots
thanks

Those who can't, critique! ;)

the first 2 shots... the white is clouds not blow outs
shot #2 was actually on a rainy/cloudy day

If its cloud, its still blown out. Sorry, not changing my stance on that. Other than that, I do think its nice, but I think that hotspot takes away alot of impact.

the "into the sun" shot was sunrise in the mountains of TN
i really wanted to capture where the sun was (i.e.) not framing it out (you can see a larger version on my site). That is not out of the camera and was more of an intended look... you can see everything shadows, highlights, blue sky through trees

Actually, I took a look at it larger this time... I think part of the washed out effect I'm seeing is you seemed to run it through some sort of texturing filter, or its supposed to look like its pontilism or something? To that, my personal view is, "meh."

I still like it, though, and I'd rather see it without that effect done to it. I actually see it, larger, has the hallmarks of the HDR effect, the hyper-greens in the right hand leaves especially, plus the shadow details in the rock.

You exhibit the hallmarks of that in the blown out cloud shot, as well, but then I can't be sure as I'm pretty positive that cloud would be toned down if it were.

Then again, I'm through putting the effort into figuring out your digital trickery, its that very reason I folded my cameras up and stuck 'em in the closet, I can't be motivated to spend MORE time at a comptuer htan I already do. Well, that and I can't budget the time or money for my preferred workstyle anymore.

you don't think any of my shots were HDR?
i'm not an "internet hack"?
:roll:

To be honest, alot of the lesser HDR images remind me of pictures done on Fuji Velvia and Kodak E100-VS, an style that I could apprechiate but preferred to not use (I stuck to B&W mostly, not colour, as I could do all the work myself). When someone resorts to that to catch details in all the zones, that's just a modernized zone system that takes advantage of computers to do the heavy lifting no man could do. Its when people ramp it up to stupid proportions that I can't handle it, and yes, that's the realm of the Internet hack.

I don't know if you are one, but if a shoe fits.. only you can tell us how cramped your toes are in your Keds, duder.
 
you don't think any of my shots were HDR?
i'm not an "internet hack"?

was supposed to read.. "am i an internet hack"?
a joking rhetorical question
 
Ramcatt wrote:
was supposed to read.. "am i an internet hack"?
a joking rhetorical question

I never joke, I'm 100% serious 100% of the time.

If you're motivated, I'd like a link to your sun-in-trees one sans pontilism-whathaveyou. I'd like to take it in without that effect.
 
Well, this thread inspired me. Took a walk this evening to the golf course beside the house, and tried a bunch of different settings, then compared the images on the computer to others.

In hindsight, I'm happy with the camera, I was asking too much. I got so used to loving my old little P&S that I lost, which did great on close ups. But when I got this new, much bigger and more advanced P&S, I started taking landscapes and such to play with it. I was dissapointed in the fine detail, for instance on distant trees. But after looking closer at the old pictures from the old camera, it wasn't any better, in fact worse. So I think I just raised my expectations too far.

Anyway, here are the pics...
1. On canned landscape setting. Ho hum.
2. On canned foliage setting. Made the green pop a bit, but washed out the sky and the distant mountain.
3. In P mode, auto WB and auto ISO, with exposure set at - 1/3. The -1/3 darkened the sky, and helped with the mountain, but the colors up close are duller.

I realize some gets lost in the compression to make it a reasonable file size for the web, so its tough to tell. But even on the big pics, I was dissapointed in the detail of the distant tree leaves and stuff.

4. Full auto mode. I've always been happy with the detail when you have a subject that fills the screen. The reason I got this camera is the wide-angle to 20x zoom without changing lenses or anything. This is at 20x optical zoom. If you add digital zoom, you can go to 80x, but you start sacrificing clarity after 20x of course.

P.S. I really like ramcatt's images. Very artistic looking. I wouldn't want that for everyday picture taking, they look fake. But its a neat effect nonetheless, and for landscapes like that, they're pretty cool.
 

Attachments

  • IMG_0117.JPG
    IMG_0117.JPG
    80.1 KB · Views: 4
  • IMG_0118.JPG
    IMG_0118.JPG
    82 KB · Views: 3
  • IMG_0121.JPG
    IMG_0121.JPG
    81.1 KB · Views: 3
  • IMG_0129.JPG
    IMG_0129.JPG
    116.5 KB · Views: 6
I don't need a new camera, they are new.
 
pcray1231 wrote:
Anyway, here are the pics...
1. On canned landscape setting. Ho hum.
2. On canned foliage setting. Made the green pop a bit, but washed out the sky and the distant mountain.
3. In P mode, auto WB and auto ISO, with exposure set at - 1/3. The -1/3 darkened the sky, and helped with the mountain, but the colors up close are duller.

I realize some gets lost in the compression to make it a reasonable file size for the web, so its tough to tell. But even on the big pics, I was dissapointed in the detail of the distant tree leaves and stuff.

Y'know what you didn't try: Canned landscape, EV -1/3.

The canned landscape more than likely just uses a form of Av (Aperture Priority) with an emphasis on a small f/stop (ie, high number). This has the effect of increasing Depth of Field.

When you left it in Program, it picked a generic best-fit, something that's fairly middle of the road for light, a "reasonable" f/stop and aperture speed that'd fit most scenarios. You then compenstated for this by forcing it to under expose by 1/3rd a stop (that's, honestly, barely nothing), which increased the detail you picked up in the sky and the mountain.

On the other hand, you lost detail in the close up colours, because your meter was originally putting priority on that, so when you underexposed it, you left them darker and dingier.

Again, as much as I hate to promote filters, this is a place where it actually HELPS to use them. If you use a polarizer there, you allow yourself the ability to darken the sky and increase distant details by cutting haze and glare. You'd also increase colour saturation on your foreground subjects.

I think I started to wander from point, but anyways, what I was getting at was Landscape mode forces the camera to steer itself towards smaller f/stops to increase your overall DoF. Part of this is also depending on what you've opted to focus on, as DoF relies on that point and will take in a selective area both in front and behind of this point.

Its hot, its tired, and I'm oncall and thus technically still working. Well, I was, I'm done with projects for the night. Now, as long as some jackhole doesn't call me, I'm going to go spend 20 minutes with the kids and then read a book about FF"ing for bass.
 
Back
Top