pcray1231
Well-known member
I have the impression that all trout have relatively diverse genetics. Whether you call it different species, subspecies, or just variation is perhaps semantics to a degree. Where do you draw those lines exactly?
But look at the hoopla on varioys cutthroats out west. Rainbows have incredible variation from different drainages. Early hatcheries struggled to raise them until they found a strain that wasnt so spooky. Our manufactured steelhead fishery is engineered to have a full fall-spring run by mixing various steains of steelhead, which themselves are genetically distinct from rainbows. Brown trout as this points out. I fully believe brookies fall in the same category.
Its an animal where entire populations are relatively confined and kept away from other populations. THeres some overlap, of course, but its not a ton.
And the "evolve" quickly. Hatcheries develop genetic characteristics in just a few generations.
But look at the hoopla on varioys cutthroats out west. Rainbows have incredible variation from different drainages. Early hatcheries struggled to raise them until they found a strain that wasnt so spooky. Our manufactured steelhead fishery is engineered to have a full fall-spring run by mixing various steains of steelhead, which themselves are genetically distinct from rainbows. Brown trout as this points out. I fully believe brookies fall in the same category.
Its an animal where entire populations are relatively confined and kept away from other populations. THeres some overlap, of course, but its not a ton.
And the "evolve" quickly. Hatcheries develop genetic characteristics in just a few generations.
gulfgreyhound
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What is a pure strain of a species? It seems to me that man has introduced such diversity by stocking that all we see are hybrids. Cutthroats can be divided by subspecies that happened by natural selection in various drainages that are so separated as to isolate each sub species? Id venture a guess that in isolated separate drainages in New Zealand you'd find a genetic sub species of brown trout. Add in the sea runs and you might find a lot of diversity. What gene make for a sub species? Color variation ? GG
pcray1231
Well-known member
That was my point. We've taken notice of the "subspecies" of cutthroats, dividing them into west slope, Yellowstone, greenback, and a half dozen others. I think that situation is the norm for all trout species. And I think it goes further than that. For instance, there's a difference between the west slope cuts of the snake river system and the Yellowstone cuts on rivers that flow into the Missouri. Because, well, they're completely isolated from one another and have been for a long time. But I bet there's a difference between, say, the salmon river drainage and the snake as well, though both are west slope. The difference is likely less as the populations are only "mostly" isolated. But when you get down to it, I bet there's also a lesser but still existing difference between various branches of the salmon.
Right down to nearly every waterway being genetically distinct from even connected waterways. The more division, the more separation. Where do you draw the line between species, subspecies, strain, and just a little variation?
The classical definition of species is that if they can mate and have viable offspring, they are the same species. For instance, we have tiger trout, but they are sterile, hence brookies and brown are not the same species. So, alright, brookie, brown, rainbow, cutthroat, etc. stays intact. Great.
But the biologic definition of subspecies? Less clear. Genetically distinct and reproductively isolated I guess. How is this different than strain? I'm not quite sure. Well, Laurel Run Brook Trout subspecies here we come! Might as well have several thousand of them!
Right down to nearly every waterway being genetically distinct from even connected waterways. The more division, the more separation. Where do you draw the line between species, subspecies, strain, and just a little variation?
The classical definition of species is that if they can mate and have viable offspring, they are the same species. For instance, we have tiger trout, but they are sterile, hence brookies and brown are not the same species. So, alright, brookie, brown, rainbow, cutthroat, etc. stays intact. Great.
But the biologic definition of subspecies? Less clear. Genetically distinct and reproductively isolated I guess. How is this different than strain? I'm not quite sure. Well, Laurel Run Brook Trout subspecies here we come! Might as well have several thousand of them!
Stenonema
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Finally a discussion that has my interest. It's a rabbit hole folks. It's an eye opener for those who understand the relevance of this subject to our trout management.
gulfgreyhound
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I've read extensively about NZ brown trout. They have done lots of studies and have a well documented history of their trout .
This is an interesting read , when we talk about "wild" trout:
https://www.poronui.com/brief-history-of-the-origins-of-poronui-trout/
GG
This is an interesting read , when we talk about "wild" trout:
https://www.poronui.com/brief-history-of-the-origins-of-poronui-trout/
GG
salvelinusfontinalis
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Spot on Eric.
Im very excited about this and what it could mean. Question is how many years after will it take for PA to get on board.
Probably a long time because we are so short sighted.
Couple that with the division amongst anglers of all types and the divisiveness fly anglers create amonst themselves there is little hope.
Oddly enough , that should be the easy part. People of like interests getting together in harmony but it isnt.
Then there is fighting regulations, lawmakers, industries etc.
Either way, i feel like i have some ideas to help some of these populations id like to share with you and Judge but im not holding my breath.
Im very excited about this and what it could mean. Question is how many years after will it take for PA to get on board.
Probably a long time because we are so short sighted.
Couple that with the division amongst anglers of all types and the divisiveness fly anglers create amonst themselves there is little hope.
Oddly enough , that should be the easy part. People of like interests getting together in harmony but it isnt.
Then there is fighting regulations, lawmakers, industries etc.
Either way, i feel like i have some ideas to help some of these populations id like to share with you and Judge but im not holding my breath.
pcray1231
Well-known member
Correct. Adapted genetically.
Take 2 freshwater rainbows, breed em, stock the fingerlings in the tribs. A few will make it out to the ocean/lake and come back, but a relatively low percentage, and not well timed.
Take 2 steelhead, breed em, stock the fingerlings the same way. Return rate is much higher. It's genetic. Not learned behavior.
It goes so far that NY, Ohio, etc. stock different strains of steelhead, because they return at different times. PA's "strain" of steelhead is a hybrid of other strains, affectionately referred to as mutts. By making a hybrid of fall run and spring run fish, they were able to make a new "strain" that, instead of a short duration absolutely massive assault on the creeks, start running in early fall and trickle in all winter long and into the spring!
Likewise, each state has in essence created a hatchery strain of each species of trout, which is different than any original wild strain. This is how golden rainbows came about. But it's a lot deeper than that. Early hatcheries in the Midwest failed HARD because the trout wouldn't take human given food, would be so skittish as to ram into walls when people walked by, etc. Survival rates were horrible. They experimented with auto feeders and so forth so as to not spook the fish and get survival rates from 1% to 3-5%. These were fish born in the hatchery! Think about that for a bit.
It was genetics. It took starting with more docile strains, and generations of selective breeding to get to a strain that would grow in a hatchery. Iowa hatcheries read about the troubles WV are having and say, hey, WV, we were there a few years back, and hey look, now we've developed this strain that does quite well in hatcheries. Wanna buy some eggs? And after developing strains that would grow in a hatchery, each state then bred for they things they wanted, like growth rate, color, etc. So PA has probably several dozen strains of wild browns now, separated the natural way, and there's also a PA hatchery strain, which has evolved over the years through both intentional and unintentional selective breeding.
Wisconsin is going full circle. They wanted to expand "wild" trout, but the modern hatchery strains weren't cutting it. Turns out they may be easy to raise, but they kinda suck really bad at breeding in the wild. Not genetically fit. So instead of collecting eggs from hatchery "breeders", they started taking eggs from wild fish and attempting to raise them in a hatchery. They re-discovered how hard it is to do it! They had to provide cover, reduce densities, keep people from coming near, etc. in the raceways in order to get any to survive. Their survival rates are still terrible compared to hatcheries geared towards put and take. But when your goal is seeding a stream, a lower survival rate is just fine so long as those that do survive actually seed a stream. The mind blowing thing is that these "wild" strain fish were descendents of already domesticated stocked strains just 70 or 80 years ago!
The genetic engineering that goes on in fish, both naturally and in captivity, is just absolutely astounding. These are animals that form isolated populations that don't mix much, small changes in behavior can lead to big differences in survival, and have relatively short lives and fast reproduction rates. Evolution is RAPID. I think fish are only topped by dogs, lol. A Great Dane and a Chiwuawa are the same species, after all.
wbranch
Well-known member
pcray1231,
Thanks for your interesting comments. I fish steelhead in NY, PA, and OH. Since a few of the OH streams are in close proximity of the PA streams the OH streams get a pretty good amount of PA steelhead in the fall run. However the spring OH fish I believe, correct me if I am wrong, are Manistee strain fish and the ones I have caught, on the average, are of significantly larger length and body mass than the PA fall fish. The picture is a spring OH steelhead.
Yes, I posed it on stream side rocks for a quick picture and it was immediately released.
Thanks for your interesting comments. I fish steelhead in NY, PA, and OH. Since a few of the OH streams are in close proximity of the PA streams the OH streams get a pretty good amount of PA steelhead in the fall run. However the spring OH fish I believe, correct me if I am wrong, are Manistee strain fish and the ones I have caught, on the average, are of significantly larger length and body mass than the PA fall fish. The picture is a spring OH steelhead.
Yes, I posed it on stream side rocks for a quick picture and it was immediately released.
Attachments
pcray1231
Well-known member
I believe thats correct on OH being manistee strain. I.e. originally seeded from steelhead from the manistee river.
Which are likely genetically distinct from Manistee rainbows, even though they co-exist. Cause there are clear genetic differences between steelhead and rainbows, they must not intermate very often. And of course after how many years of OH raising them in hatcheries, have deviated considerably from the Manistee feedstock.
But ok, so we call them Manistee strain. They run at different times from other strains. PA fish, genetically different, run at different times.
Whats a strain vs. a subspecies? Are these perhaps as different as west slope cuts vs. greenback cuts? How do you measure such a thing?
I think depending where you draw the line, you could feasibly have hundreds of subspecies, or strains, or whatever you call them.
And going the other way, if separate species means they cant interbreed and have fertile offspring, what the heck is a cutbow? Are rainbows and cutthroats the same species?????? Lol. Why do we call them different? Cause they look different? And well, heck, atlantic salmon and brown trout hybrids produce fertile offspring too, although its more likely with a loch leven strain brown than a german brown. Sheesh. It's fun to ponder.
This is how evolution happens. Species splits up into subspecies A, B, C. A and B work. B and C work. But A and C do not. Subspecies B goes extinct, you now have 2 different species instead of subspecies. It happens fast with fish because they are isolated from other populations easily.
Which are likely genetically distinct from Manistee rainbows, even though they co-exist. Cause there are clear genetic differences between steelhead and rainbows, they must not intermate very often. And of course after how many years of OH raising them in hatcheries, have deviated considerably from the Manistee feedstock.
But ok, so we call them Manistee strain. They run at different times from other strains. PA fish, genetically different, run at different times.
Whats a strain vs. a subspecies? Are these perhaps as different as west slope cuts vs. greenback cuts? How do you measure such a thing?
I think depending where you draw the line, you could feasibly have hundreds of subspecies, or strains, or whatever you call them.
And going the other way, if separate species means they cant interbreed and have fertile offspring, what the heck is a cutbow? Are rainbows and cutthroats the same species?????? Lol. Why do we call them different? Cause they look different? And well, heck, atlantic salmon and brown trout hybrids produce fertile offspring too, although its more likely with a loch leven strain brown than a german brown. Sheesh. It's fun to ponder.
This is how evolution happens. Species splits up into subspecies A, B, C. A and B work. B and C work. But A and C do not. Subspecies B goes extinct, you now have 2 different species instead of subspecies. It happens fast with fish because they are isolated from other populations easily.
Acristickid
Well-known member
Interesting. Love to learn about the different species of trout and salmon.
I like to learn about how the fish got to the waters they inhabit,to learn about the waters that they are in.
I follow Dr Behnke book trout and salmon of North America. He uses science ( number of gill rakers etc..) to differentiate the species and subspecies.
There are certainly numerous species and sub species of rainbows from Searuns to stream only inhabitants to Lake only rainbows. For example , there was a sea run rainbow that became trapped in Lake Cresent because there was a giant landslide that blocked passage- rainbow referred to as A Beardsley rainbow. In addition to the 14 Cutthroat which are descended from rainbows. There are two possible new sub species of cutthroat a Bear River which is really a Bonneville and also a Pecos strain of the Rio Grande cutthroat,
Lots of examples of bows like that- 8 in Oregon that are in closed systems and their genetics are slightly different as they have evolved isolated in their own environments and have adapted over time. With this it would not surprise me there are different genetics in the browns.
I’ve come to learn that it is speculated that 40% of the Native trout species may become extinct within 50 years. Do it now.
If your interested in these types of things-these books will be of great interest.
I like to learn about how the fish got to the waters they inhabit,to learn about the waters that they are in.
I follow Dr Behnke book trout and salmon of North America. He uses science ( number of gill rakers etc..) to differentiate the species and subspecies.
There are certainly numerous species and sub species of rainbows from Searuns to stream only inhabitants to Lake only rainbows. For example , there was a sea run rainbow that became trapped in Lake Cresent because there was a giant landslide that blocked passage- rainbow referred to as A Beardsley rainbow. In addition to the 14 Cutthroat which are descended from rainbows. There are two possible new sub species of cutthroat a Bear River which is really a Bonneville and also a Pecos strain of the Rio Grande cutthroat,
Lots of examples of bows like that- 8 in Oregon that are in closed systems and their genetics are slightly different as they have evolved isolated in their own environments and have adapted over time. With this it would not surprise me there are different genetics in the browns.
I’ve come to learn that it is speculated that 40% of the Native trout species may become extinct within 50 years. Do it now.
If your interested in these types of things-these books will be of great interest.
K
KenU
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Want to learn about rainbows, stocking and the omelet we have made of our wild trout fisheries? Read "An Entirely Synthetic Fish by Anders Halverson."
M
Mike
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Short and to the point...Salmonids are genetically very plastic and one result is that there can be a lot of overlap in meristic characters between species.
We once sent a carcass of a large Salmonid from the Delaware River, caught around New Hope, to an Ichthylogical expert, who then passed it onto another expert lab after the first lab had a shot at identification. The result? Just as in my case, nobody else could conclusively determine whether it was an Atlantic salmon or a Brown Trout using meristics. There was too much overlap in key characteristics.
We once sent a carcass of a large Salmonid from the Delaware River, caught around New Hope, to an Ichthylogical expert, who then passed it onto another expert lab after the first lab had a shot at identification. The result? Just as in my case, nobody else could conclusively determine whether it was an Atlantic salmon or a Brown Trout using meristics. There was too much overlap in key characteristics.
salvelinusfontinalis
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Ding ding ding.
Buy that man a chicken dinner!
They are differnt but not.
They move people and the ones that do are the crown jewels of PA and everyone talks of gemmiesint: :hammer:
Buy that man a chicken dinner!
They are differnt but not.
They move people and the ones that do are the crown jewels of PA and everyone talks of gemmies
int: :hammer:
Acristickid
Well-known member
In my pursuits of native fish all across America- biologists widely acknowledge and accept that stocked or fish moved to non native waters is a big threat ( probably the biggest threat to the Fish in general). Not to mention the dams, cattle , logging , irrigation and climate change.
Many Cutthroats have been hybridized with an invasive rainbows.
The author of the Plastic Fish posted up about his book on PAFF several years ago.
If you want to find the most pure natives (as much as that’s possible) means finding streams that have barriers to nonative and or going far up into small headwaters were they have been pushed to. Which means long drives and hikes.
Wonder what the threats in Europe are to the browns- probably stocked fish.
Many Cutthroats have been hybridized with an invasive rainbows.
The author of the Plastic Fish posted up about his book on PAFF several years ago.
If you want to find the most pure natives (as much as that’s possible) means finding streams that have barriers to nonative and or going far up into small headwaters were they have been pushed to. Which means long drives and hikes.
Wonder what the threats in Europe are to the browns- probably stocked fish.
Maurice
Administrator
Staff member
Did nobody but me see the pic of the plump wild brown trout lying in the dry grass? Seems to me to be the only conclusive result of the article, that its ok to photograph trout this way.
