Bob's Creek

silverfox

silverfox

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I mentioned in another thread that I fished Bob's yesterday for a few hours and the vast majority of what I caught were brown trout. I caught 1 brook trout out of 52 fish. Most browns were small 3-4" in length. I fished from the beginning of the class A line up about 1.3 miles into the SGL. I moved fast and hit every little riffle and pocket w/ small flies trying to catch brook trout. I even skipped most holes or obvious good water to focus on marginal water. All the skinny spots were just small brown trout whereas years ago, those would've all been small brook trout.

I know there are some others here that fish Bob's. I'm curious if anyone else has fished it recently and caught brook trout? I looked back at 2 years ago when I fished the same stretch at about the same time of year and saw I caught several brook trout. It was still predominantly brown trout 2 years ago, but I caught more than I did yesterday. Yesterday was pretty shocking. As I've said before, I've noticed it trending toward more and more brown trout over the years, but I'm a bit more concerned now than I was.

In the same area, it's now been 2 years since I've caught a brook trout in Wallacks below the picnic area to Bob's. Same question here. Has anyone fished Wallacks in the past year and caught a brook trout?

I reached out to the AFM a few weeks ago about whether PFBC has done an updated survey on Bob's and he told me they haven't surveyed it yet. In lieu of a survey, I'm just interested in any other anglers' experiences on either stream.
 
I’ve caught Brookies every time I’ve fished it over the last several years. Didn’t fish it in 2021, but did at least once a year from 2018 through 2020. More Brookies the further up you go, further up than you describe on your most recent outing. That said, the overall catch rate was about 15:1 Browns to Brookies.

Haven’t fished Wallacks much, but I’ve ONLY caught Browns in there.
 
I’ve caught Brookies every time I’ve fished it over the last several years. Didn’t fish it in 2021, but did at least once a year from 2018 through 2020. More Brookies the further up you go, further up than you describe on your most recent outing. That said, the overall catch rate was about 15:1 Browns to Brookies.

Haven’t fished Wallacks much, but I’ve ONLY caught Browns in there.
I was hoping you'd chime in. I think we've discussed Bob's before. I didn't fish it in 2021 either. Yesterday was shocking. Where you'd expect to pick up a few small brookies (shallow riffles w/ little pockets around rocks), they were all little browns.

I'm not sure I have it in me (psychologically) to hike down in from Diamond road, but I might just to see. From what I saw yesterday I don't have high hopes.

I looked back and I caught this brookie in a hole I fished yesterday in 2019 on June 15th (photo info on the right). I took photos of 5 different brook trout on June 15th 2019 and I don't take many photos of fish and I remember catching quite a few brookies that day. They were all in that area where I described.

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Yeah. There’s “more” up there, but it’s still very much mostly Browns from my last outings.

Also, in lower, clearer flows, you’d normally expect the catch rate to shift a bit to more in favor of Brookies (Browns become really hard to catch in those conditions), but you didn’t see that at all on your recent outing. Speaks to the validity of the Brown takeover.
 
Same here. Used to fish Bob's quite a bit and my catch ratio was 3:1 in favor of brookies. It has definitely changed and now favors browns. While I never caught anything larger than 12", my last trip two trips in 2021 yielded browns between 5"-9" and a few pinkie sized brookies. I have yet to fish there this year simply because I have other better producing brookie creeks closer to State College.
 
I Peter out before I get to high up, don’t catch many at all and almost zero in the stocked area.
 
Getting a little more in the weeds here. I've always noticed a difference in brook trout at Bob's. I know it used to be stocked with brook trout. In 2021, there were no brook trout stocked, at least none were recorded.

Big disclaimer, I'm not entirely sold on identifying genetic purity via outward appearance. However, I think in some cases it becomes obvious when there's hatchery mixing going on. For example, these "patriot trout" (selectively bred brook trout to enhance the squiggly magenta "dots") mixing with wild fish produce obvious physical traits that imply the fish is the product of a wild native brook trout X a laurel hill trout farm brook trout.

In addition to the brook trout I posted above, this fish is what I would consider a clearly wild brook trout with seemingly "pure" genes. I usually look at the black line on the anal fin and how clean that line is as a good indication of how "native" the fish is. Note this was June 15 2019, roughly 3 years ago to the day from when I fished it Sunday.

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In contrast, this is almost certainly a stocked brook trout (note trailing edge of caudal fin and rough black line on anal fin).
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This fish is a little harder to tell, but when compared with the first photo and the other fish I posted earlier, you can clearly see the difference in fish. I suspect this fish might be a stream-born fish, but it could be stocked as well. Its fins are clean, but the black line on the anal fin isn't clean. It's fairly small for a stocked fish, but it's legal sized. The thing that makes me think it's stream born, and possibly a cross between a wild native fish and a hatchery fish is that it's very different than the other obvious stocked fish AND the clearly "native" fish.
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I think another "tell" on these fish is the spots. Look at the difference between the fish below up close and the fish above. Again, I don't claim that outward appearance can identify genetic "purity", but there's clearly 2 different "looks" going on here.

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So why does all this matter? We know hatchery introgression is bad for the wild fish. Hatchery fish aren't suited for survival in the wild and the traits they've been bred for (ferocious appetite, fast growth, no fear, etc.) don't translate to survival in the wild. So, in theory, there could have been a lot of hatchery introgression going on here because of the relative fitness of the brook trout being stocked. We know introgression is relatively rare, however, those studies were based on pretty terrible source stock from hatcheries. Not all stocked trout are created equal, and some may be more fecund or successful at survival than others.

I'm just trying to wrap my head around all the factors that might be at play here. I don't think there's any two ways about it that the brook trout population here has collapsed over the past 20-30 years. I hope PFBC surveys this again to compare against historic records. I'm willing to accept that I'm wrong, but I have a hard time believing my angling experiences would be that far off from reality.

So hatchery introgression may have played a role, but the other thing that's changed a lot during that time is the amount of "habitat improvement" projects that have gone on here. Prior to about 2000, from my recollection, the stretch from about the ballfields in Pavia up into the SGL were relatively natural. I know from researching the habitat work that a lot of it started in around 2002 which is about 2 years into the formation of the "Stream Guardians" branch of the Pavia Sportsmens Club. Between 2002 and today, there have been a LOT of in-stream structures built in the stretch from the ballfields into the SGL.

Some of these structures are obsolete jack dams that create movement barriers during low flow. If we get a low baseflow year I'm going to measure the vertical drop on some of these dams. I think anyone who's fished here knows what I'm talking about. Some down by the old CCC camp have to be 2 feet or so of vertical drop off the plank platform on the upstream side of the dam. I think the height combined with low flow would make them difficult for brook trout to pass.

So in theory, brook trout could've been trapped down in the lower end of the stream as temperatures increased. These pools created by the dams are home to a lot of holdover stocked trout and larger wild brown trout all year round. So for a brook trout to get through there, they have to avoid predation AND make a vertical jump w/ little to no water assistance.

Thankfully, we have some data on Bob's back to 2010 anyway. Here's the temperature profile from 2010 to today. Obviously, there's nothing that stands out here. The high during that period was on August 9th 2021 at 76.6 F at Pavia. Prior to that it was July 22nd 2011 at 75.4 F. The high average is right around 20C/68F over that timespan. I don't think it's unrealistic to project back prior to 2010 and assume the trend was likely very similar. The 2010 to 2022 timespan certainly doesn't show a noticeable average increase. It's worth noting that up in the SGL/Class A section there are several feeders that likely stay much cooler, and the temperature would go down from the recorded temp at Pavia, so even though it saw high 70's in Pavia, several miles up in the watershed was likely several degrees cooler.

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So I don't buy an explanation that water temperatures favored brown trout as an explanation. I personally believe, as is probably the case in a lot of places, that there have been multiple factors at play. Habitat structures that favor brown trout and stocked trout, the continual shift in C&R/Harvest likely resulted in far more nonnative (larger stocked and wild nonnative fish) staying in the stream for longer, heavy stocking, possibly genetic introgression, and the typical invasion/invader benefit favoring nonnative fish.

I'm not sure there's anything that could be done about all of this at this point. Unfortunately, I think brook trout are never coming back here. It's worth mentioning that further south, and at a much lower elevation (it's worth pointing out that Blue Knob is the 2nd highest point in Pennsylvania) there is a population of allopatric brook trout in a relatively untouched network of smaller streams where the main stream is close to the size of Bob's creek that weathered the same environmental conditions but remains intact and relatively robust for a brook trout population in this area. To me, that reinforces that the habitat work and the nonnative fish introductions, possibly angling pressure, and hatchery introgression all likely contributed to the decline in brook trout here.
 
I fished Bob's in the SGL on April 8 of this year. The water was high and muddy and cold (air temps below freezing overnight). I caught 14 browns and 2 brookies. However, my experience has always been mostly browns from Diamond Lane downstream into the SGL in the section where the SGL road parallels the stream, with a higher concentration of brookies in the roadless SGL section and below. There is a massive influx of sediment in that stream - some from recent logging in the SGL, but it existed before any of that logging occurred. It tips the hand in the angler's favor for longer after a rain than a normal stream, but it has to be extremely detrimental to spawning and fish in general. Above Diamond Run, the stream is absolutely choked with sediment.
 
I fished Bob's in the SGL on April 8 of this year. The water was high and muddy and cold (air temps below freezing overnight). I caught 14 browns and 2 brookies. However, my experience has always been mostly browns from Diamond Lane downstream into the SGL in the section where the SGL road parallels the stream, with a higher concentration of brookies in the roadless SGL section and below. There is a massive influx of sediment in that stream - some from recent logging in the SGL, but it existed before any of that logging occurred. It tips the hand in the angler's favor for longer after a rain than a normal stream, but it has to be extremely detrimental to spawning and fish in general. Above Diamond Run, the stream is absolutely choked with sediment.
I've heard this sediment issue before and I know where it's coming from and do fully understand the issue there. However, it certainly hasn't impacted the brown trout there at all in my opinion. The number of yearlings I caught Sunday was unbelievable. I also haven't seen (anecdotally) an impact to the macroinvertebrate community, though it would be interesting to see an updated macro survey. As you noted, the sediment issue has been there for quite some time. If I had to guess, at least back to the 1940s.

It's fair enough to add sediment issues to the list of other factors I posted above. As with any catastrophic failure, it's likely a combination of a multitude of things.
 
I fished Bob's in the SGL on April 8 of this year. The water was high and muddy and cold (air temps below freezing overnight). I caught 14 browns and 2 brookies. However, my experience has always been mostly browns from Diamond Lane downstream into the SGL in the section where the SGL road parallels the stream, with a higher concentration of brookies in the roadless SGL section and below. There is a massive influx of sediment in that stream - some from recent logging in the SGL, but it existed before any of that logging occurred. It tips the hand in the angler's favor for longer after a rain than a normal stream, but it has to be extremely detrimental to spawning and fish in general. Above Diamond Run, the stream is absolutely choked with sediment.
I'll also add that this other network of allopatric brook trout streams has extreme sediment issues. Far worse than Bob's creek. In fact, the entire headwaters is in open fields and then flows into a large legacy beaver pond that was removed about 15 years ago. There's a good 2 miles of the headwaters that are nothing but clay and legacy sediment. Again, the brook trout population there is relatively strong. I'm sure it could be better w/ some proper habitat improvement and better riparian buffer up in the fields/headwaters, but the one big missing element in that system is nonnative trout.
 
The reason you are catching less brook trout MAY be because brook trout are no longer stocked.

It is usually pretty easy to identify stockies from the large PFBC hatcheries.

With trout produced in the small club hatcheries, distinguishing stockies from wildies can be difficult.

Back when you were catching lots of brook trout, were you catching lots of small brook trout, 2-6 inches? In the typical brook trout population, the number of these small brook trout greatly exceeds the number that are 7 inches and up. And especially in a stocked stream.
 
The reason you are catching less brook trout MAY be because brook trout are no longer stocked.

It is usually pretty easy to identify stockies from the large PFBC hatcheries.

With trout produced in the small club hatcheries, distinguishing stockies from wildies can be difficult.

Back when you were catching lots of brook trout, were you catching lots of small brook trout, 2-6 inches? In the typical brook trout population, the number of these small brook trout greatly exceeds the number that are 7 inches and up. And especially in a stocked stream.
I should've been more clear about that. What I saw Sunday was that in shallow riffles and tiny little pockets around rocks where I would target brook trout w/ small flies, all I caught were 2, 3 and 4 inch wild brown trout whereas in the past those would've been 2, 3 and 4 inch brook trout. Certainly not stocked brook trout. I took photos of 5 different brook trout on June 15th 2019 and the only reason I photographed them was because they were bigger. Like I said, the one is obviously stocked. The other absolutely not, one is questionable, and the other sure looks wild/stream born to me.

What I used to see, and I'm curious if others agree, is multiple year classes of brook trout. From 2 inches to 10 inches. One thing I know is that the brook trout that used to come from Reynoldsdale (they no longer raise brook trout there) were some of the ugliest brook trout I've ever seen. That's where the source stock for Bob's creek came from PFBC anyway. I suspect the "Stream Guardians" or Pavia sportsmen club, used Laurel Hill fish.

Discounting anything over 7 inches as potentially stocked, I still don't see the diversity of year classes now as compared to 3, 5, 10, 15, 20 or more years ago.

I don't take a lot of photos of little ones, but for some reason, I took a photo of this one in 2016. Obviously not a stocked brook trout. I completely disagree that the explanation for fewer brook trout is the cessation of stocking brook trout or that all the fish I caught in Bob's creek were stocked. It was surveyed in 2005 and PFBC documented a class a mixed brook/brown population in section 2. So unless PFBC and myself are completely mistaken, there were a lot of wild brook trout there at one time.

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Those private stocked brook trout (again, I assume from Laurel Hill) are harder to ID, but they're still obviously stocked in my opinion. Like this one. Pretty decent looking, but still obviously stocked.

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State fish: Pretty easy to know they're not wild.
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I'll be camping in Blue Knob later this month. How's this stream fish this time of year?
 
As far as wild vs. stocked, on brookies, the black/white separation on the caudal fin in my experience is a solid tell. A perfectly straight and sharp white/black distinction, and then fairly sharp to red, signifies wild. The stocked ones, that transition is often muddy, or at least not a perfectly straight line.

Color among a wild population varies wildly. Male/female, time of year, type of cover, diet, etc. Fish in woody lies often appear very dark overall, and a lot of black around the mouth area. In faster, rockier lies they are brighter. Males of course show a lot more red in the belly, especially in fall.

I have picked up genetic differences in different drainages, but it's not 100%, I think there's a lot of genetic mixing. Schuylkill drainage fish tend to have larger and less numerous YELLOW spots, and fewer (and more in a line rather than random) red spots. Not speaking to the intensity of those spots, as that varies by other factors. But the number and distribution.
 
I'll be camping in Blue Knob later this month. How's this stream fish this time of year?
Should fish ok, as long as it has something of a flow. There are wild fish all the way down to Weyant (at least that's as far downstream as I've ever fished). Probably some holdovers in the pools with the high density of stocked fish that are dumped in.. The stretch between the two 869 bridges above and below Pavia held nice fish opening day week but probably warmed too much to hold them all summer.
 
I mentioned in another thread that I fished Bob's yesterday for a few hours and the vast majority of what I caught were brown trout. I caught 1 brook trout out of 52 fish. Most browns were small 3-4" in length. I fished from the beginning of the class A line up about 1.3 miles into the SGL. I moved fast and hit every little riffle and pocket w/ small flies trying to catch brook trout. I even skipped most holes or obvious good water to focus on marginal water. All the skinny spots were just small brown trout whereas years ago, those would've all been small brook trout.

I know there are some others here that fish Bob's. I'm curious if anyone else has fished it recently and caught brook trout? I looked back at 2 years ago when I fished the same stretch at about the same time of year and saw I caught several brook trout. It was still predominantly brown trout 2 years ago, but I caught more than I did yesterday. Yesterday was pretty shocking. As I've said before, I've noticed it trending toward more and more brown trout over the years, but I'm a bit more concerned now than I was.

In the same area, it's now been 2 years since I've caught a brook trout in Wallacks below the picnic area to Bob's. Same question here. Has anyone fished Wallacks in the past year and caught a brook trout?

I reached out to the AFM a few weeks ago about whether PFBC has done an updated survey on Bob's and he told me they haven't surveyed it yet. In lieu of a survey, I'm just interested in any other anglers' experiences on either stream.

Wow, I drove by today with no intention to fish and it's so low. What was the temperature?
 
This is a shame to hear but not surprising.
It is such a lovely little creek to fish and can get very remote.
 
Wow, I drove by today with no intention to fish and it's so low. What was the temperature?
That was back in June. According to the gauge in Pavia, the temp was 55.8F at the bridge on 869 that day. It's better now than it was a few weeks ago flow-wise. Right now, the temp is 62.4F. I saw people fishing today when I drove by.

Since I was looking at the graph anyway, I'll mention that the highest temp Bob's saw this year was 71.6F on Aug 9th. It only got above 69F for a total of 8 days this year. On two different occasions, it was over 70F for a total of 4 days before dropping again. That's all at the 869 bridge in Pavia, so it only gets cooler the further upstream you go.
 
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