Back the Brookie/Brush Rod Design - Please Give Your Opinion

[OhioOutdoorsman]

Alright, I'm finalizing my design for a series of rods that will be sold on ebay to benefit TU's "back the brookie" campaign through a service on ebay called missionfish which is used to give money to charities. I will make no money, will donate my time, and in fact intend to loose a little money on this proposition...i just want to raise dollars.

The rods will be 2 and 3 piece rods offered in 2-5 weight measuring 5' 3" to 6' long. They will be based on tiger eye IM6 blanks have moderate to moderate-slow action. They will have a case with a long adjustable strap and hard plactic caps and ends that allow the cases to be carried if desired around the shoulders or waist.

What I am struggling with is the reel seat for this sort of rod. Would you prefer a standard uplocking, a slinding band uplocking or downlocking, or a double sliding band over cork configuration for a rod such as this?

What line weight and length would you want if you were designing it yourself?

How important would the rod being three pieces vs. two pieces be?

Thanks in advance........

 

[Chaz]

Why would you base your rods on 15 to 20 year old technology? Is it price? I for one want a fast action rod with some backbone to hammer large flies in under obsticles like tree roots, overhanging branches, and woody debris where the big boys hang out, I'm not interested in finding dinks that fly through the air when I set the hook. A moderate to slow action rod isn't what I want, and it shouldn't be on anyones shopping list. Brookies are found in medium and large streams and the grow larger in these streams. I also say you have to have longer rods from 7'6' to 9'. Don't even bother with 2 piece rods.

 

[FarmerDave]

Chaz wrote:
Why would you base your rods on 15 to 20 year old technology? Is it price? I for one want a fast action rod with some backbone to hammer large flies in under obsticles like tree roots, overhanging branches, and woody debris where the big boys hang out, I'm not interested in finding dinks that fly through the air when I set the hook. A moderate to slow action rod isn't what I want, and it shouldn't be on anyones shopping list. Brookies are found in medium and large streams and the grow larger in these streams. I also say you have to have longer rods from 7'6' to 9'. Don't even bother with 2 piece rods.

Chaz, I have to respectfully disagree with much of what you said (you old fart).;-) You just described a brown trout rod for Penn's creek.

It's true that brook trout can be found in some larger streams, but for the last 70 plus years, the vast majority of wild brook trout fishing is on very small streams. For these small streams, I feel a moderate action rod is better. In order to "punch" files out there with a fast actuon rod, you have to have a fair amount of line out there to do the punching. With the tiny streams, you usually can't do that. The rod has to be able to cast just the leader in some cases and maybe a few feet of line. And when you do catch one of those "dinks," (and it happens no matter where you fish) they are less likely to fly trough the air on the hook set with a slower action rod.

As far as length goes, there are two trains of thought. Some people prefer the shorter rods for the small streams because you can actually cast them. Some people prefer longer rods because you don't have to have as much line out. I used to use a 6 footer, and I know Dave Curran used a 9 footer to fish the same streams. Neither is wrong, just different. However, my preference would still be around 6 foot, give or take. when crawling through the brush, I want the rod to be shorter than me.

As far as weight goes, no need to go heavier than a 4, or lighter than a 2 (IMHO). 2 piece would be fine for me. The case would still be only about 3 feet long. Three piece on a small rod may effect the action.

Reel seat? If you qo with a short light weight synthetic rod as planned (notice I didn't say plastic this time), I'm thinking maybe the double slide bands on cork would be the best bet. Easier to balance rod and reel.

To each his own.

Edit: Ohio, Chaz has a whole lot more experience than me when it comes to trout fishing. He's probably forgotten more than I know about the subject (that was meant as a compliment). I was just stating my preference. I've always preferred moderate action fly rods over fast for about everything. So weigh our opinions accordingly. Let me know when you put one up there, I'll be more than happy to get the bidding started.

 

[Wulff-Man]

FarmerDave, I'm guessing you don't use the proper terminology because you're embarrased that you aren't sure how to spell it. It's G-R-A-P-H-I-T-E.

Ohio, I haven't done small stream fishing with a lot of different equipment, so I can't give you an expert opinion. All I can say is that I like my 7' 4wt. medium-fast 2-piece rod a lot for this purpose. I don't have a problem hiking in with my rod assembled, so 2 pieces is fine. Others may have different opinions on that. I don't really have an opinion on the reel seat.

P.S. Kudos on your money-raising efforts!

 

[5footfenwick]

I have to say that the 2wt. or 3wt. and a rod of about exactly 6 foot with a moderate slow action and one piece would be what I would want. I mean I have caught 20+" rainbows and browns on a 1wt. so little line wt can still catch big fish. 6 foot is about average height of people, (average height is actually prolly less) but this would still stand just about as tall as everyone. This would make it easily to handle in brush.(you want it to be a brush rod correct?) And as for making it more than one piece..... why? it is only 6 feet long. I have never understood why nobody makes a 1 piece rod(or at least are not popular)I mean there isn't many cars that something 6 foot won't fit in. I would still make your 3 or 2 piece, but if you made a few 1pieces that would be cool too. also to satisfy those that want a little more rod make a couple models, say three:
6 foot modslow action 1 piece 2 wt
6 foot moderate action 2 piece 2wt
7'6" fast action 3 piece 3wt

just my 2 cents
~5footfenwick

 

[FarmerDave]

5foot,

graphite plants don't grow that tall. :-D

 

[FarmerDave]

Wulff-Man wrote:
FarmerDave, I'm guessing you don't use the proper terminology because you're embarrased that you aren't sure how to spell it. It's G-R-A-P-H-I-T-E.

Graphite? do you mean that stuff in my mechanical pensils??? ;-) Well, graphite in it's raw state is a mineral, so I guess synthetic wasn't totally accurate. I should have said composite material. :lol:

 

[ian_brown]

Will the rods be auctioned or sold for a fixed rate?

Personally, I would like a 6'6" to 7' 3 wt, and a moderate to slow action sounds perfect. But I'm about the least experience fisherman on this board.

 

[OhioOutdoorsman]

Ha, this is great.

To clarify, this is the sized stream we're talking about, where many brookies live......



I've polled on a couple of other sites that have polling options and it seems most want to buy a 5 to 6' moderate action 2 to 3 wt rod. About 80% vs 20% that want a longer high modulous stick.

I just want to build what will sell and genrate money and feel I am best able to do this by building a rod that would be difficult to find from today's manufacturer's.

These small rods should also generate some publicity for the cause, too.....

Anyway, I have some reservations from personal experience and from reports from other rod builders that the double sliding bands over cork that the reels fall off.

I could have an uplocking or downlocking slide band that would weigh about the same and there are some uplocking screw type seats that would be just about as light also.

This will be a small run of 20-25 rods aimed at a nitch market.

 

[5footfenwick]

FarmerDave,

I realize it is tuff to get your plants this tall, try 10 on, 10 off and don't forget miricle grow and rabbit droppings. :-D

~5footfenwick

P.S. if he would just make a 5 foot fenwick 1 piece Id buy another one.

 

[FarmerDave]

5footfenwick wrote:
FarmerDave,

I realize it is tuff to get your plants this tall, try 10 on, 10 off and don't forget miricle grow and rabbit droppings. :-D

~5footfenwick

P.S. if he would just make a 5 foot fenwick 1 piece Id buy another one.

5foot, See there, I was using shicken chit, but for the plants that you are growing, I wouldn't try that. Might stink up the basement.:-?

I'm with you on the 1 piece for a 5 or 6 foot rod. I wouldn't mind owning a one piece 5 foot in about a 2 or 3 weight. Shortest rod I ever owned was cheap 6 foot (4wt).

Ohio, It wouldn't matter to me what type of reel seat. I don't own any slide band type rods. I prefer the downlocking screw type myself for cane rods because it puts the reel slightly further back for balance. For a short graphite rod, uplocking might balance better. Call it an educated guess.

P.S. I know I have seen that stream before.

 

[5footfenwick]

FarmerDave, I just like a little one piece, becase it is something different, and I like having a rod I can throw in the car, or have in the car that is ready to fish with. I mean there is no taking it apart, so there is no reason, not to leave it fully fishable (other than that kink the top guide puts in the line if you don't use it very often) to take the reel off, or put it in a tube. You can just grab it and go.
P.S. Stay out of my Basement ;-) unless you are contributing some of that green thumb Farmer Knowledge
~tight lines
~5footfenwick

 

[Padraic]

Hey, what an awesome thing to be doing! I love it!

For your review, Harray Murray (who built a strong reputation on smallmouth bass and mountain trout fishing) had Scott design a fly rod for just the sorts of streams you are interested in.
http://murraysflyshop.com/Murray_Mountain_Trout_Fly_Rod.html

The taper is fairly unique. I'd say the closest you'll get to it is a "mid flex" or perhaps "tip flex" but the butt is very stiff for powerful casting.

 

[afishinado]

Wulffman wrote: "All I can say is that I like my 7' 4wt. medium-fast 2-piece rod a lot for this purpose. I don't have a problem hiking in with my rod assembled, so 2 pieces is fine."


Ditto Wulffman on his rod choice for small tight streams. One difference is that I got myself a pack rod (7 piece) that breaks down into a 12" long case. I put it in my backpack for the hike in.

I don't fell that I have enough control over my cast with slow action rods. Sometimes I need to cast a tight loop into a tight space and a slow rod can’t do the job for me. To me a slow rod is like a car with only one gear. A fast rod can be cast with the tip, or down to the butt by adjusting your power (speed) stroke.

Before I had the money to buy multiple rods for different fishing conditions, I fished small streams with my 9' 5wt rod, because that's all I owned. It was a little tougher trying to maneuver through the undergrowth, but I had the advantage of being able to dap while standing away from the bank. Overall a shorter rod is usually better, but the point is don’t let your equipment stop you from fishing smaller water or even larger water for that matter. You can adapt to your equipment.

 

[Chaz]

With all due respect Ohio, when I started fishing those types of brookie stream the only rod I had was a 6 weight 9 foot loomis IMX. When I fish those same streams now I fish them with a 7'6" fly rod of fast action. Brookie streams are about the only streams I fish about 80 times a year.

 

[OhioOutdoorsman]

Chaz,

Truth be told, I agree with you. I have gotten rid of every rod below 7' (after many experiments) and think that the only rods that a trout fisherman needs is a 7 1/2 ft 4wt and a 9' 5wt. I totally agree that you can throw a lot tighter loop with a fast rod and that most people would be better off dapping and highsticking their way upstream on small creeks. I also agree that busting through a bunch of brush to catch a bunch of 4" fish that fly out of the water isn't a great fishing experience for me.

But what you or I want is besides the point.

I have been getting repeated requests for slow short light rods that will be easy to carry through the brush and will not flip the 4" fish out of the water when the hook is set. They also request sliding band reel seats, which I have found, especially with 2 sliding bands over cork, to be the least reliable seats out there. I, for one, am tired of having my reals beat to heel when they drop on rocks or in the river with these seats.

I don't care what I build, I just want them to sell and make as much money as possible for the Back the Brookie campaign. I'm going to invest about $1000 intially and my time in building rods and don't care if I build 3 sage z-axis rods or 10 of these rods. Whatever works. I'll give some thought to offering something more conventional also based on the responses I have gotten here.

 

[salvelinusfontinalis]

for what is worth
i use full flex 7' rods when going for brook trout. i hate meduim flex and tip flex rods. what is the point if you cant feel the fish at all. i love your idea though ohio. good for you!

 

[Wulff-Man]

Ohio, you may have a point about the "mini" rods. I mean, anybody can buy a 7'6" 4 wt. just about anywhere. There may be enough fly fishers out there who would like a small rod in their arsenal, I hate to say as a novelty, but maybe more for the different experience on tiny brookie streams. And it would be appropriate for them to buy one to support "Back the Brookie." It's just kind of hard to predict. Which is why you're trying to get a feel from us here. Maybe there are enough fly fishers who don't think like those of us who have responded so far to make your project a success.

 

[OhioOutdoorsman]

I really do appreciate the honest feedback.

I re-polling with some more fast/highmodulus/longer multipiece options - namely 6' 3" 3pc 3wt Sage SLT and a 7' 3wt 3pc appalachian angler blanks. Now mind you these will run $500 and $350 repectively as opposed to about $250 for the Tiger eye IM6.

This will be a signifigant investment of time/maney for me so I want to get it right.

I've pretty much decided to go with REC Recoil Guides and a engraved ("Back the Brookie") blued nickel silver reel seat with a maple burl insert. I will get permission from TU to use the "Back the Brookie" phrase before I use it.

Comments?

 

[FarmerDave]

afishinado wrote:

I don't fell that I have enough control over my cast with slow action rods. Sometimes I need to cast a tight loop into a tight space and a slow rod can’t do the job for me. To me a slow rod is like a car with only one gear. A fast rod can be cast with the tip, or down to the butt by adjusting your power (speed) stroke.

It is a matter of preference and experience. Personally, I feel that I have more control with a moderate action rod over a fast action because I can better feel the rod load. Yes, we can cast tighter loops with faster action rods, but it is not what i am used to. I cast by feel, and I don't feel the rod load with the fast action rods that I have used so far. Maybe i just haven't tried the right one yet.

I also feel that it is harder for someone who is used to fishing fast action to get used to slower action. You end up with a lot of wind knots until you get used to it (from my experience). A friend once loaned me a very slow action bamboo rod, and it was hard for me to get used to that slow of a rod. Much harder than it is for me to get used to a faster rod.

I have a St. Croix imperial 8 ft, 5/6wt that I have used for everything from sunfish to steelhead. I love the action of that rod. It has good feel, and still has enough backbone to cast larger flies. It doesn't do well with bass bugs though. I also have an Orvis Clearwater that i think is 7'6" and 5wt. To be honest, I prefer the St. Croix because it is slower, and I have better feel. I keep the Clearwater around for my backup. Of course they are both backup for cane rods. Right now I am using the graphite rods as primaruy rods for all but bass and steelhead. Normally, my stream trout rod is an Horrocks Ibbotson split cane that I rebuilt. Unfortunately, I need to replace the tip section, and haven't had time. This was also my very first fly rod which I purchased when iw as about 13 or 14 to catch bluegills at my uncles pond. It was originally made in 1934. I modified it some, and it is fairly fast for bamboo and casts a 4 or 5 weight very well. It has great feel. There is something about using those old vintage rods, even if they started life as cheap production rods. The first time i took it out after rebuilding it, my mind wondered as I started catching trout. I can only imagine the stories that rod could tell (the original owner died when I was about 19). It was one of my most memorable days on the water, and I was only catching stocked trout. My goal is to still be around 27 years from now for this rods 100th birthday. Granted, most of it is no longer original ... but in 27 years, odds are looking pretty good that I won't be 100 percent original either.

By the way Ohio, I used a solid nickel silver reel seat with stablized birdseye maple insert (bellenger?). It looks great. I used nickel silver plated aluminum with fiddleback maple (with a short removable fighting butt) on my split cane bass rod, and it is not nearly as nice. That rod is lighter color, and I figured the lighter color seat would look good against it. I prefer the darker stablized wood, with the real nickel silver.