Pa Wild Trout Summit (Recap/Commentary)

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Mike

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Many thanks to the 250 or more individuals who attended the Summit today on such a beautiful day to be outdoors instead. We had individuals attend from all over the state. Quite impressive! Enjoyed meeting those who took the time to say hi or ask me a question. I hope you found the various topics to be as interesting as I did.
 
Hi Mike,

Your talk about the history of wild trout management in Pennsylvania was excellent. I enjoyed it and learned a lot.

Thanks too for your participation on this site. It's good to have an extremely knowledgeable voice on here.

For those of you who couldn't make it to the summit, it was filmed and will be on the PFBC website in the near future.
 
Can't wait to view it! I already have my opinion on what went on without even seeing or hearing anything. I am thinking they are going to tell the people who care about wild trout what they want to hear yet end up going out and doing something else. its more about money then it is about management.
 
Bigjohn, you're right to a point. In the real world you can't have legitimate magement without money. Fisheries biologists and related staff, law enforcement, etc. can't afford to do this work without being compensated. Beyond that there's the equipment and other associated necessities/desirables to do the job right.
How many times have we thought that, in our job, we could do better with more resources. Then, one day. management calls a meeting to inform us that budgets have been cut and we're going to have to do more with less. It takes a lot of time and grief to bring management to a point when they realize that goals and the pressure placed on employees to achive those goals are unrealistic and customers/stakeholders must accept less. No customer/stakeholder wants to hear that. Are we any different? We can't let cynicism control our perspective. If we hear that we can help, let's do it.
 
Not exactly what I was getting at OldLefty...

I'm more thinking that places that have a lot of money or people who have a lot of money that can influence the PA Fish Commission have things changed for the better or worse. I grew up and still fish weekly a class A stream that only a small portion gets any recognition or protection. The lower section still gets stocked which I honestly do not have that big of a deal with but the middle section has zero protection. Why? Because there's no cabins, no people with big money coming to that area for whatever reason. The water is just productive or even more productive then their special reg sections. IF PA Fish Commission would care about wild trout then this ENTIRE stream would be protected and have different regulations. In this section that isn't stocked and has no regulations on the class A stream one of PA Fish Commission's biologists lives. This gentleman stocks behind his house in non stocked class A waters. This is your biologists that are supposed to be doing the right thing and doing the total opposite that they should be. How can you trust what the biologists for the fish commission are saying when they aren't even doing the right thing themselves? One last thing about this stream...it hasn't had a fish warden for well over a year now. He moved out above Oil City and they said due to lack of funds he wasn't being replaced. Wardens are supposed to check on the area from other regions but this isn't being done. You can have all the regulations you want but if no one is around to enforce them then you might as well have none.

Then I look at an area like Pine Creek around Slate Run. The area is catch and release. Why? Because a lot of people with big money complained and wanted it that way. Its not because it is a trout habitat. Its really a smallmouth habitat. It barely can allow trout to survive in it. You have to go months without being able to fish it due to water temps. This isn't prime trout water. I personally feel this is a prime place where a delayed harvest would be used best. This way the trout can be harvested once the water temps raise.

So see the PA Fish Commission doesn't do the right thing...they do whats going to get them the most money while pretending to care about wild trout. I bet 5% or less of the anglers that purchase a fishing license and trout stamp even care about wild trout. We are the smallest population of license buyers out there. The ones that care about wild trout probably going to purchase a license no matter what. They already know they are getting our money so they have a little meeting to pretend they care to get our hopes up yet the opposite will probably occur. I really hope I am wrong about this but I have very little faith in our commissions.
 
The PA Game Commission is the same way...

They got shut down for their latest license price increase. To make up for that they went to the WMUs where the doe license sell out the fastest but the populations are the worst. They went and increased license numbers in all those management units because they knew greedy hunters would buy them up. Its not because they think the management units need more does harvested its because they knew it would bring more money into their pockets.
 
Bigjohn, it's no secret that money makes the world go round. However the management ideas you propose are very complex decisions. Currently if you add a new stream section as delayed harvest you are going to see a lot more fishing pressure because many anglers think more trout are stocked in said section or that the section is the best part of the stream to fish. The changes in fishing pressure are definitely considered in decisions. Many fishermen have fished bfc their entire lives and they still refuse to admit the abundance of wild trout that swims between their legs in mill hall. Education about wild trout is key and I'm the only way to truly protect wild trout streams from a management perspective is to make them catch and release or have a slot limit for a short time of the year. Some select harvest is good for population balance in some streams. Look at fishermen's Paradise, very few large trout are present there but the habitat and food is there. It begs to be considered that potentially if a select harvest of some of the 7-9 in fish by anglers would leave enough food for the larger fish to get over the hump and grow 20+ more frequently. The key to any special regs is adequate enforcement and as you stated that county does not have a wco currently. That is a financial issue and unfortunately probably won't change unless there is license increase or pfbc decides to reassign someone else.
 
BFC would probably not get more pressure IF the entire stream had some kind of regulation. I agree with what you say about Spring Creek. I just know 2 locals who destroyed parts of the BFC brown trout populations. One kept over 150 wild Browns in one season. The other individual is not far behind. He would go into Uncle Joes Woodshed bragging about it and show off some of the larger fish. It's amazing how a few individuals can ruin it for everyone. NOTHING is going to change until you change the minds of people like that!
 
thumbs up bigjohn
 
bigjohn58 wrote:
BFC would probably not get more pressure IF the entire stream had some kind of regulation. I agree with what you say about Spring Creek. I just know 2 locals who destroyed parts of the BFC brown trout populations. One kept over 150 wild Browns in one season. The other individual is not far behind. He would go into Uncle Joes Woodshed bragging about it and show off some of the larger fish. It's amazing how a few individuals can ruin it for everyone. NOTHING is going to change until you change the minds of people like that!

Back in the day, I found that a 2X4 worked well for changing minds.;-)
 
For those who are interested, I posted a 2 part write up on the Summit here http://tcotrouttales.blogspot.com/
Part 2 contains some interesting stats. Take it for what it is worth.
 
Bill. Thanks for the write up. Glad your take away was mostly positive.
 
wjkosmer wrote:
For those who are interested, I posted a 2 part write up on the Summit here http://tcotrouttales.blogspot.com/
Part 2 contains some interesting stats. Take it for what it is worth.

Just read your blog...kind of exactly what I was expecting. I still want to know how you solve a problem like lower Fishing Creek through Mill Hall. Its class A water but no way would the public around that area ever allow it to not be stocked. I am all for wild trout and hold them above about every species of fish out there but even I don't want to see stocking cease on Fishing Creek. Stocked trout and the wild browns seem to coexist fine on lower Fishing Creek. The PAFBC only stocks rainbows and occasionally brooks. They will not stock browns. I feel in some environments that have a lot of fishing pressure and a lot of people in those areas like to harvest fish that stocking has to continue to take place. I do not see it as a bad thing. I don't understand why stocked trout and wild trout can't coexist in a stream if its large enough. I am against stocking on streams that are wild brookie small streams but larger streams I feel can handle it.
 
Hatchery trout can carry diseases and parasites like whirling disease and gill lice, to mention just a few. So there are negative consequences. Perhaps the most negative is the large increase in angling pressure (harvesting) that stocking encourages. Those are the downsides. The upside is that it attracts anglers and sells, not only fishing licenses which support the PFBC operation, but a lot of commercial stuff.

Back in the late 1970s E. Richard Vincent, a Montana fisheries biologist, showed that stocking reduced the wild rainbow population in the Madison River by 868%, the brown trout population by 160% and increased average size of the brown trout by 2 inches. In a later study in Spruce Creek, PA, Bachman showed how this worked: Competition for living and feeding space was the culprit. After a bitter struggle between Vincent and many others who believed the fishing public would abandon Montana’s trout fishing in droves, that state stopped stocking over wild trout in the 1970s. Its trout fishery is now world famous and they are doing just fine.
 
Yeah but KenU, "PA is not Montana" ;-) How many times have we heard that geographically obvious statement when arguing against taking this management approach in PA?
 
The_Sasquatch wrote:
Yeah but KenU, "PA is not Montana" ;-) How many times have we heard that geographically obvious statement when arguing against taking this management approach in PA?

Hit the nail on the head...compare Pennsylvania's population to Montana's. Last I knew I believe almost all those states in the west have a stocking program of some sort even.
 
bigjohn........so that is kind of what I was trying to get at, it is not a simple black and white answer. In regards to Fishing Creek, it is Class A and we know it can support a healthy population of wild fish. So what is the real issue here? Either the general public is uneducated about the fishery, or, they want to harvest fish at a level the creek would not be able to sustain. This is a prime example of an area where maybe a slot limit would make sense. But that may not allow enough harvest to appease the masses. As was mentioned above, we are not MT, but we never will be if we take the approach of managing the fishery for harvest vs the actual resource. There are not easy answers to this. PFBC is in a tough spot, especially given their dependence of license sales as their primary revenue stream. This is why I think we need to get all parties in the room. Given the increase in C&R angling in recent years, maybe we are at a point where the locals would be ok with no stocking there if they were educated about the wild trout and that just because PFBC would not be stocking it, that doesn't mean all the fish would disappear....that could be overly optimistic too. If their concern is just to able to harvest a few thousand trout on the opening weekend, then the solution gets cloudy. I guess the point is, what does the angling public of PA want? Good wild fisheries, or scenic trout raceways. Again, no one is talking about no stocking anywhere, just on these Class A and B, primarily, water ways.

Ken is correct, stocking and wild trout do not go together. The data is out there, and it shows that stocking adult trout over wild trout is very detrimental to the wild trout population. The two really can't co-exist if you want to protect the wild trout fishery. Also, to his point about disease, just look at the recent gill lice issues that have surfaced this year.
 
In fairness, I think Pennsylvania sportsmen are a bit more refined than they may have been a few years back. When the PGC instituted the antler restrictions, it was highly unpopular among a fair portion of the hunting population, yet today it's hard to find anyone that doesn't appreciate the benefits. I think you'd have some squealing, but adults are capable of listening to the facts and recognizing that trout will still exist, and possibly in greater numbers, if the stocking were to cease. Just my opinion of course.....
 
GANGREEN.........I agree completely. I think PFBC just needs to be somewhat sure before they make a leap that could put them out of business. The Summit was a good start to get the ball rolling and to get the conversations going. The numbers show, that way more people are fishing today for recreation vs sustenance, hence the large increase in C&R. Again, I am not against someone harvesting a few fish each year, it is the "goal not a limit" guys.

Also, while I think "our" opinions matter, "we" are the customers that buy a license every year, regardless. I think sometimes that can be taken for granted when it comes to decision making.
 
Honestly speaking......150 trout being kept from one angler or 3, or 10 from BFC isn't even beginning to make a dent in that trout population. I don't advocate keeping trout at all and don't myself but this is a typically knee jerk reaction to something that doesn't really even matter in the scope a fishery like that. Yes it sucks but it's not going to impact your fishing there at all.
 
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