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Mike
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Yes, it was innovative thinking by AFM's in the SE and SW, specifically **** Marshall and Blake Weirich, that started the DH program. It was in large part a response to anglers who wanted C&R fishing, but was a practical solution to the fact that most stocked trout waters in those regions could not support a good or any C&R program through the typical summer due to warm water temps. The DH program offered fishing over exceptionally high densities of stocked trout at the time of year when streams were cold enough to support those fish and it then allowed limited harvest to thin those populations out as water temps approached the anticipated unacceptable levels for fish health, fish survival, and reasonably good fishing. Standards were established for entry of streams into the program and one was that the streams had to stay cool until July1, which would allow at least two weeks of harvest between June 15 and July 1. Starting with Oil Ck that standard was later circumvented, and streams were placed in the program that could not meet the temp standard. Given that, and for consistency as to how the program is supposed to operate, allowing a reasonable harvest period leading into the summer by setting up an earlier harvest date is appropriate. And for streams that still meet the original standard, more harvest time would be appropriate since harvest rates have been low. Other states have recognized that too.
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CRB
Well-known member
A specific small area of a stream in a said area is not going to get kids fishing. These areas Hold fish later than other sections of the same stream because fisherman Catch and release and don't fish the area out. Best management would allow the system as it is on nwpa dh areas. These areas are frequented very regularly with fisherman because there are fish to catch in the later part of the summer months. Harvesting them will only mean the early fall will see fewer fish and fewer fisherman.
As a resident of Erie county I see the effects of large numbers of fish in the stream. Few fish running the L Erie tribs equals a lower number of fisherman on them. Fish are what equals fisherman numbers on a steam. No fish and fisherman travel right on by to another activity.
If license sales are so important stock more fish.
1.) Lower the limits on All waters.
2.) Stock fish later in the spring. Keep the fish from spreading out through out the stream. This would also allow the stocked fish to get bigger before being let go.
3.) Stock fewer fish more often.
4.) Stop Stocking a stream that does not afford hold over fish. This IMHO a great wast of fisherman's dollars. Kids want fish to catch without fish why fish? I know if the kids are not catching fish they are bord and want to go play or go home and play.
As a resident of Erie county I see the effects of large numbers of fish in the stream. Few fish running the L Erie tribs equals a lower number of fisherman on them. Fish are what equals fisherman numbers on a steam. No fish and fisherman travel right on by to another activity.
If license sales are so important stock more fish.
1.) Lower the limits on All waters.
2.) Stock fish later in the spring. Keep the fish from spreading out through out the stream. This would also allow the stocked fish to get bigger before being let go.
3.) Stock fewer fish more often.
4.) Stop Stocking a stream that does not afford hold over fish. This IMHO a great wast of fisherman's dollars. Kids want fish to catch without fish why fish? I know if the kids are not catching fish they are bord and want to go play or go home and play.
Wild_Trouter
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This might be a good time for the PFBC to reclassify the DHALO area on Falling Springs as C&R Artifical Lures or Trophy Trout Project. I'm not sure when this stream was last surveyed, but every time I fish this section, I become more and more convinced that it does not need any supplemental stockings. Water temps are not a problem either. Resource First...
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Fishidiot
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Agree on Falling Springs.
On the overall issue of allowing bait during the summer on DHALOs....I'm undecided. It makes some sense with respect to use of stocked fish, and I'd be more inclined to support this if I thought it would increase license sales (which I doubt). On the other hand, it's worth remembering that the amount of trout stream length managed under special regulation is still fairly small across PA. Certainly, traditional angling has its place in PA and such anglers are as much entitled to enjoy their conception of the sport as we FFers. However, I'm not convinced that removing the requirement for artificial lures on current DHALOs is a good thing.
While willing to change my mind on this issue....for now, I'm unconvinced the change is a good idea. I could probably be persuaded if the PFBC would consider adding more special reg sections. This seems to be the trend (eg. Pine Creek) and if allowing bait in summer makes it possible to get new special regs on waters that currently lack them....I'd support the idea and would certainly consider this a fair trade off.
D
double00
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Maurice
Administrator
Staff member
The commish is all about utilizing the stocked fish. (ie.; killing them) when will they realize that catching a fish multiple times is of more value than catching it once?
Buy alas if it doesnt leave the stream on a stringer it is wasted. Knuckledraggers the lot of them...and they are trying to convert yur kids as well.
They should have billboards that say "Dead Trout = Enjoyment"
That should sell licenses...and how bout that wackjob stating the lowering of size from 9" to 7"...its like saying. If theres wild trout there below spawning age, by all means kill them too!
These are our biologists and they are not speaking for those here on this board.
Buy alas if it doesnt leave the stream on a stringer it is wasted. Knuckledraggers the lot of them...and they are trying to convert yur kids as well.
They should have billboards that say "Dead Trout = Enjoyment"
That should sell licenses...and how bout that wackjob stating the lowering of size from 9" to 7"...its like saying. If theres wild trout there below spawning age, by all means kill them too!
These are our biologists and they are not speaking for those here on this board.
H
Harley
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I'm neutral on this, but I have a couple of points.
In my mind, I question how many people strictly fish bait, and nothing else. It's not like there's no place to fish with bait. Especially looking at the percentage of DHALO waters.
Second, as a father, I seriously doubt this will make more kids fish. My son likes fishing, and fish, because I do it. He's too young to go right now. My plans to get him into fish... Take him to a privately stocked, kids only pond where you can walk across it on the backs of fish, and or get him into a mess of bluegills. IMO, he's not going to be excited about it fishing a "good trout stream" and maybe catching two fish in a few hour stretch, at least not until he can appreciate it for what its worth.
IMO, there are too many different regulations. Why do we need to further complicate things? Now, we're going to get a special regs section where, kids can keep fish at any time, but adults have to check the dates, which are different than regular trout season, and bait sometimes, but not others.
Just some ramblings.
In my mind, I question how many people strictly fish bait, and nothing else. It's not like there's no place to fish with bait. Especially looking at the percentage of DHALO waters.
Second, as a father, I seriously doubt this will make more kids fish. My son likes fishing, and fish, because I do it. He's too young to go right now. My plans to get him into fish... Take him to a privately stocked, kids only pond where you can walk across it on the backs of fish, and or get him into a mess of bluegills. IMO, he's not going to be excited about it fishing a "good trout stream" and maybe catching two fish in a few hour stretch, at least not until he can appreciate it for what its worth.
IMO, there are too many different regulations. Why do we need to further complicate things? Now, we're going to get a special regs section where, kids can keep fish at any time, but adults have to check the dates, which are different than regular trout season, and bait sometimes, but not others.
Just some ramblings.
H
Harley
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"Buy alas if it doesnt leave the stream on a stringer it is wasted. Knuckledraggers the lot of them...and they are trying to convert yur kids as well.
They should have billboards that say "Dead Trout = Enjoyment"
That should sell licenses...and how bout that wackjob stating the lowering of size from 9" to 7"...its like saying. If theres wild trout there below spawning age, by all means kill them too!"
That's some funny stuff right there. Didn't see it as i was writing at the same time.
Something that it made me think about. What do kids know about harvest vs. C&R? Only what we teach them.
They should have billboards that say "Dead Trout = Enjoyment"
That should sell licenses...and how bout that wackjob stating the lowering of size from 9" to 7"...its like saying. If theres wild trout there below spawning age, by all means kill them too!"
That's some funny stuff right there. Didn't see it as i was writing at the same time.
Something that it made me think about. What do kids know about harvest vs. C&R? Only what we teach them.
Bamboozle
Well-known member
Wasn’t "regulation consistancy" the whole reason the PFBC dumped the Heritage Trout and Delayed Harvest FFO designations among others? Why muddy up the works again? Multiple sets of rules of rules for harvest and "kid only" rules are only going to confuse people considering most of bait anglers I encounter don’t read the signs and rely on hearsay information for their regulation information sourcing.
Must explain why I have seen guys fishing on AT streams before Opening Day because: "I thought if I put ‘em back, it is OK” or I see stringers filled with sub-sized wild trout because: “I thought the minimum size didn’t apply to ‘natives”, among other ****amamie excuses for ignorance.
Trust me, when they allow kids to use bait on Delayed Harvest, you will see Honey Boo Boo, and the rest of the family using bait on C&R Artificials Only or Trophy Trout streams because: ”I thought kids could use bait all the time, anywhere”. Maybe you’ll see Mama June "helping" the kids fish bait by holding their "pole" until they get a bite ‘cause: "that ain't reallly fishin', is it?" or there is no signage to remind them of the rules because Cletus pulled them 'offen the trees last night, "just in case".
STUPID idea PFBC. You can't force people to keep fish unless you want to become Switzerland. Even your numbers tell us less and less people keep fish even when they can do so legally. As far as kids go, I hate to break it to you but the popularity of fishing amongst children is going down and nothing will change it.
Maybe you should develop fishing apps or computer games instead of trying to break something that is fixed?
Must explain why I have seen guys fishing on AT streams before Opening Day because: "I thought if I put ‘em back, it is OK” or I see stringers filled with sub-sized wild trout because: “I thought the minimum size didn’t apply to ‘natives”, among other ****amamie excuses for ignorance.
Trust me, when they allow kids to use bait on Delayed Harvest, you will see Honey Boo Boo, and the rest of the family using bait on C&R Artificials Only or Trophy Trout streams because: ”I thought kids could use bait all the time, anywhere”. Maybe you’ll see Mama June "helping" the kids fish bait by holding their "pole" until they get a bite ‘cause: "that ain't reallly fishin', is it?" or there is no signage to remind them of the rules because Cletus pulled them 'offen the trees last night, "just in case".
STUPID idea PFBC. You can't force people to keep fish unless you want to become Switzerland. Even your numbers tell us less and less people keep fish even when they can do so legally. As far as kids go, I hate to break it to you but the popularity of fishing amongst children is going down and nothing will change it.
Maybe you should develop fishing apps or computer games instead of trying to break something that is fixed?
krayfish2
Well-known member
Isn't it really this simple:
There are 2 type of streams / rivers. "Type 1" has sufficient temps / forage base to support trout all year long. "Type 2" is a seasonal / put -n- take fishery. Reduce numbers of stocked fish in the streams that can support a fishery on their own. Dump all you want into the seasonal fisheries.
What would happen if.....
Type 1 streams were open to fishing from Feb 1st - Oct 15th. Short close season permits any spawners to finish their business without being disturbed / having their redds stepped on. Closed means NO FISHING AT ALL. Harvest permitted from April 1st to Labor day of 1 fish per day, 11" or bigger. Simply cut the river in half.... 1 half of the river is all tackle and the other is artificial lures only. These streams are more geared toward the fishery being the main focus.
Type 2 streams open from April 1st - Labor day. 3 fish per day limit and 11" minimum size. Apply strict enforcement (revenue from violators and they'll be plenty). Since the PFBC is putting fewer fish in the "type 1" streams, they will have more for the meat fishermen and should be able to raise more fish in the 12-18 month old range. This type of stream will focus on the angler satisfaction and harvest of the stocked trout.
Special regs: Kids / handicap fishing areas, absolutely. Designate 10%-15% of each "type 1" stream as FFO / C&R, yes. I know the FF-ing community makes up a small portion of the license paying public which is reflected in the relatively small percentage requested as "FFO".
If Penns has 12 miles of "type 1" water, why can't it be divided something like this... 2 miles of FFO/ C&R, 5 miles of artificial lures only and 5 miles of all tackle / bait? Everyone get a little slice of the pie. If you are going to say that the all tackle crowd is getting screwed, not really. Cut off your #14 snelled hook loaded with Zeke's Corn bait and put on a spinner or plug. Looky there, you just doubled the amount of water you have to fish and didn't need to buy a fancy fly fish pole.
Secondly, if you are a worm dunker and you're going to biitch that you're getting screwed, not really. Simply stop fishing 'type 1" streams and focus more on "type 2" streams where harvest is the main focus. There will be far more miles of 'type 2" streams so the availability will still be there for the bait / harvest anglers to fill the freezer.
Just rambling and adding my 0.02
There are 2 type of streams / rivers. "Type 1" has sufficient temps / forage base to support trout all year long. "Type 2" is a seasonal / put -n- take fishery. Reduce numbers of stocked fish in the streams that can support a fishery on their own. Dump all you want into the seasonal fisheries.
What would happen if.....
Type 1 streams were open to fishing from Feb 1st - Oct 15th. Short close season permits any spawners to finish their business without being disturbed / having their redds stepped on. Closed means NO FISHING AT ALL. Harvest permitted from April 1st to Labor day of 1 fish per day, 11" or bigger. Simply cut the river in half.... 1 half of the river is all tackle and the other is artificial lures only. These streams are more geared toward the fishery being the main focus.
Type 2 streams open from April 1st - Labor day. 3 fish per day limit and 11" minimum size. Apply strict enforcement (revenue from violators and they'll be plenty). Since the PFBC is putting fewer fish in the "type 1" streams, they will have more for the meat fishermen and should be able to raise more fish in the 12-18 month old range. This type of stream will focus on the angler satisfaction and harvest of the stocked trout.
Special regs: Kids / handicap fishing areas, absolutely. Designate 10%-15% of each "type 1" stream as FFO / C&R, yes. I know the FF-ing community makes up a small portion of the license paying public which is reflected in the relatively small percentage requested as "FFO".
If Penns has 12 miles of "type 1" water, why can't it be divided something like this... 2 miles of FFO/ C&R, 5 miles of artificial lures only and 5 miles of all tackle / bait? Everyone get a little slice of the pie. If you are going to say that the all tackle crowd is getting screwed, not really. Cut off your #14 snelled hook loaded with Zeke's Corn bait and put on a spinner or plug. Looky there, you just doubled the amount of water you have to fish and didn't need to buy a fancy fly fish pole.
Secondly, if you are a worm dunker and you're going to biitch that you're getting screwed, not really. Simply stop fishing 'type 1" streams and focus more on "type 2" streams where harvest is the main focus. There will be far more miles of 'type 2" streams so the availability will still be there for the bait / harvest anglers to fill the freezer.
Just rambling and adding my 0.02
McSneek
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Preach!!!
pcray1231
Well-known member
Kray,
About each getting a slice of the pie, yes, but not an equal slice, and certainly not equal to license sales. As a FF'er, I can, and do, fish "bait" areas. Hence, 100% of the area is "mine." As a bait fisher, my dad cannot fish ALO areas. Unless you were suggesting making the "bait" areas "bait ONLY".
I do agree with Maurice that I abhor the way they measure success of stocked fish. It should be about providing an enjoyable experience.
For instance, CRB's post #3. I agree on many points, but not #2. Stocking later in the spring may indeed keep fish from spreading out. But even in "bait" areas, is this a good thing? How many would rather catch 10 fish while fighting crowds in the 20% of the stream near stocking points, while 80% of the stream carries less fish and people? I'd rather catch 3 or 4 and have fish, and people, more spread out. This isn't steelhead, the fish don't run all the way up from a lake. In smaller stocked streams, the majority of the fish stay within a few pools of where the bucket was dumped, creating "honey holes" with tons of fish and people. The next stocking point may be 2 miles downstream where another bridge crosses. That situation annoys me to no end. Stocking EARLIER reduces it.
(I do recognize that in some streams, for instance highly acidic ones, stocking close to opening day is necessary or there will be very few fish at all remaining)
Anyway, rant over. I support.
1. Yes, remove some class Bish streams from the stocking list to make more fish in less capable ATW's. The effect will be small but it still makes sense. We'd like more stocked fish. We are understanding of budget and facility constraints. Hence, utilize em better by saving more fish for the streams that truly need them to be worthwhile.
2. From a philosophical standpoint, I'm fine with kids being allowed to use bait in DHALO areas. The detail will be tricky. When dad's teaching his 5 year old to cast, and demonstrating, is he breaking the law? If so, it's a tough situation that makes it harder to teach. If not, then this is gonna get abused!
3. Also fine with opening up DHALO areas to all-tackle once it gets warm.
4. You can do this without trying to encourage more harvest in DHALO areas. Yes, most of em will die. So what? A fish that is released 3 times and kept on the 4th is LESS valuable than a fish that is released 5 times and then dies of thermal stress, and far less valuable than the odd one that finds a cold spring and holds over. I'll live with slightly higher mortality rates due to bait, for the inclusion of all anglers. But reject the notion that bait and harvest go together. Nothing wrong with encouraging bait fishers to release. Many already do, and the more skilled ones that these places would attract do not have a super high mortality rate.
About each getting a slice of the pie, yes, but not an equal slice, and certainly not equal to license sales. As a FF'er, I can, and do, fish "bait" areas. Hence, 100% of the area is "mine." As a bait fisher, my dad cannot fish ALO areas. Unless you were suggesting making the "bait" areas "bait ONLY".
I do agree with Maurice that I abhor the way they measure success of stocked fish. It should be about providing an enjoyable experience.
For instance, CRB's post #3. I agree on many points, but not #2. Stocking later in the spring may indeed keep fish from spreading out. But even in "bait" areas, is this a good thing? How many would rather catch 10 fish while fighting crowds in the 20% of the stream near stocking points, while 80% of the stream carries less fish and people? I'd rather catch 3 or 4 and have fish, and people, more spread out. This isn't steelhead, the fish don't run all the way up from a lake. In smaller stocked streams, the majority of the fish stay within a few pools of where the bucket was dumped, creating "honey holes" with tons of fish and people. The next stocking point may be 2 miles downstream where another bridge crosses. That situation annoys me to no end. Stocking EARLIER reduces it.
(I do recognize that in some streams, for instance highly acidic ones, stocking close to opening day is necessary or there will be very few fish at all remaining)
Anyway, rant over. I support.
1. Yes, remove some class Bish streams from the stocking list to make more fish in less capable ATW's. The effect will be small but it still makes sense. We'd like more stocked fish. We are understanding of budget and facility constraints. Hence, utilize em better by saving more fish for the streams that truly need them to be worthwhile.
2. From a philosophical standpoint, I'm fine with kids being allowed to use bait in DHALO areas. The detail will be tricky. When dad's teaching his 5 year old to cast, and demonstrating, is he breaking the law? If so, it's a tough situation that makes it harder to teach. If not, then this is gonna get abused!
3. Also fine with opening up DHALO areas to all-tackle once it gets warm.
4. You can do this without trying to encourage more harvest in DHALO areas. Yes, most of em will die. So what? A fish that is released 3 times and kept on the 4th is LESS valuable than a fish that is released 5 times and then dies of thermal stress, and far less valuable than the odd one that finds a cold spring and holds over. I'll live with slightly higher mortality rates due to bait, for the inclusion of all anglers. But reject the notion that bait and harvest go together. Nothing wrong with encouraging bait fishers to release. Many already do, and the more skilled ones that these places would attract do not have a super high mortality rate.
JackM
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The thing about these armchair management discussions that perplexes me is the tendency of us to think that the best management of a stream to satisfy our own enjoyment is the best way for everyone's enjoyment. It clearly is not-- not by a long shot.
SBecker
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At least fishing licenses are a dollar cheaper. O wait, I bought a three year.
krayfish2
Well-known member
Pat,
If you fly fished and then picked up a spinning rod, you WOULD then have access to 100% of the stream. Wouldn't the same be true if you dad (or anyone else) if they set down a spinning rod and picked up a fly rod? Got ya on that one.
"It wouldn't be fair" or "equality for all". Not really and not my intentions. It's a way to provide like minded anglers a fishing spot. Maybe I want to dunk a worm with my nephew, we go to the appropriate section which happens to be heavily stocked. But wait, I love that hole up by the railroad trestle but it's in the c&r area. Well, guess I'll go fish and put them back. I don't see anyone standing in the way of a spin fisher learning how to fly fish and vice versa.
Shane,
I also bought the 3 yr license and got the NY license last year prior to the price drop. Oh well.
If you fly fished and then picked up a spinning rod, you WOULD then have access to 100% of the stream. Wouldn't the same be true if you dad (or anyone else) if they set down a spinning rod and picked up a fly rod? Got ya on that one.
"It wouldn't be fair" or "equality for all". Not really and not my intentions. It's a way to provide like minded anglers a fishing spot. Maybe I want to dunk a worm with my nephew, we go to the appropriate section which happens to be heavily stocked. But wait, I love that hole up by the railroad trestle but it's in the c&r area. Well, guess I'll go fish and put them back. I don't see anyone standing in the way of a spin fisher learning how to fly fish and vice versa.
Shane,
I also bought the 3 yr license and got the NY license last year prior to the price drop. Oh well.
McSneek
Well-known member
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- Apr 12, 2011
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- 2,297
More and more it seems the PAF&BC just can't see beyond a mission of raising hatchery trout to be stocked and easily harvested as their "business model." I thought Airway was going to be more about "Resource First" but I haven't seen any difference in him and his predecessors that just kept perpetuating the great white fleet.
At the end of the day, opening up these regulated sections to kids fishing bait isn't going to create more interest in fishing. It will create more opportunity for greedy adults to break the law. I guess that will keep the WCOs employed.
At the end of the day, opening up these regulated sections to kids fishing bait isn't going to create more interest in fishing. It will create more opportunity for greedy adults to break the law. I guess that will keep the WCOs employed.
McSneek
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Oh, and $1.00 off a fishing license isn't the solution either! LOL at that idea.
bingsbaits
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- 211
Bait fishing in the DHALO on Oil Creek would pretty much end the summer and fall trout bite. The meat hounds would clean it out.
Turn the kids loose with bait and the white bus with ten amish kids in it will clean it out.
Turn the kids loose with bait and the white bus with ten amish kids in it will clean it out.
