Strippin a sculpin....help!

[Fishidiot]

Tim,
Okay. You're in one of those gray areas. By "they" do you mean the state Fish Commission? If it's a park open to the public, are you sure it isn't stocked? As a general rule, you are barred from fishing in stocked areas. And, to further complicate things, the rule bars fishing in "downstream areas" below stocked areas but "downstream" isn't defined (we have another thread right now going on about this issue, see Stream Locations, "Not spec regs...."). A quarter mile is very close. Certainly don't get any closer. If it were me, I'd wait till trout season opens on April 2nd before returning to that spot or at least until you have a better idea of the status of that particular waterway.

 

[midnightangler]

fyi, it is illegal to fish approved trout waters and any waters downstream of approved trout waters NOT under special regulations before opening day.

i don't think downstream is a gray area. It means any point downstream.

 

[Fishidiot]

Midnight,
"Downstream" is most definitely a gray area. Think about it.

All our major warm water rivers such as the Susquehanna, Delaware, Allgheny, Juniata etc are all "downstream" of Approved Trout Waters and by your strict definition are off limits to fishing. It's ridiculous. These are warm water fisheries and clearly open to fishing. As I said in a previous post: Common sense has to prevail. At some point, we bass fishermen are fishing legally even though, somewhere up in the headwaters, there's a stocked section or tributary.

Now, I do think that in this particular scenario where one is talking about a mere quarter mile below an apparent ATW....there may be a legality issue. I've asked WCOs and agency folks about this "downstream" and "tributary" issue and always get the same basic answer: You can't fish in stocked ATWs. I've never seen nor heard any definition of "downstream."

 

[midnightangler]

Midnight,
"Downstream" is most definitely a gray area. Think about it.

All our major warm water rivers such as the Susquehanna, Delaware, Allgheny, Juniata etc are all "downstream" of Approved Trout Waters and by your strict definition are off limits to fishing. It's ridiculous. These are warm water fisheries and clearly open to fishing. As I said in a previous post: Common sense has to prevail. At some point, we bass fishermen are fishing legally even though, somewhere up in the headwaters, there's a stocked section or tributary.

Now, I do think that in this particular scenario where one is talking about a mere quarter mile below an apparent ATW....there may be a legality issue. I've asked WCOs and agency folks about this "downstream" and "tributary" issue and always get the same basic answer: You can't fish in stocked ATWs. I've never seen nor heard any definition of "downstream."

Downstream has an unambiguous meaning. I realize that people fish for warm-water species downstream of ATW without being written up, but the wording is extremely clear:

approved trout waters and all waters downstream of approved trout waters

"All waters" obviously does include rivers like the susquehanna, all the way to the PA border. One could certainly argue that the spirit of the law is to prevent people from fishing for stocked trout prior to opening day, but the wording is entirely unambiguous: you can't fish downstream of stocked ATW. It may be implicit that the law only applies to people targeting trout, but you'd have to ask a lawyer about that. I don't see how "all waters downstream" can be misconstrued... you can argue that they don't mean what they wrote, but what they wrote is certainly clear. I would argue that by the letter of the law, rivers like the Juniata, Allegheny, etc. are clearly NOT open, certainly not if you fish for trout.

 

[afishinado]

midnightangler wrote:

Midnight,
"Downstream" is most definitely a gray area. Think about it.

All our major warm water rivers such as the Susquehanna, Delaware, Allgheny, Juniata etc are all "downstream" of Approved Trout Waters and by your strict definition are off limits to fishing. It's ridiculous. These are warm water fisheries and clearly open to fishing. As I said in a previous post: Common sense has to prevail. At some point, we bass fishermen are fishing legally even though, somewhere up in the headwaters, there's a stocked section or tributary.

Now, I do think that in this particular scenario where one is talking about a mere quarter mile below an apparent ATW....there may be a legality issue. I've asked WCOs and agency folks about this "downstream" and "tributary" issue and always get the same basic answer: You can't fish in stocked ATWs. I've never seen nor heard any definition of "downstream."

Downstream has an unambiguous meaning. I realize that people fish for warm-water species downstream of ATW without being written up, but the wording is extremely clear:

approved trout waters and all waters downstream of approved trout waters

"All waters" obviously does include rivers like the susquehanna, all the way to the PA border. One could certainly argue that the spirit of the law is to prevent people from fishing for stocked trout prior to opening day, but the wording is entirely unambiguous: you can't fish downstream of stocked ATW. It may be implicit that the law only applies to people targeting trout, but you'd have to ask a lawyer about that. I don't see how "all waters downstream" can be misconstrued... you can argue that they don't mean what they wrote, but what they wrote is certainly clear. I would argue that by the letter of the law, rivers like the Juniata, Allegheny, etc. are clearly NOT open, certainly not if you fish for trout.

What you wrote above is really the definition of "ambiguous." Since it is legal (I think:-?) to fish the big rivers of PA in March, apparently the law is not so clear. Finally, if the law wasn't so ambigous..........this thread would not exist.:lol:

 

[midnightangler]

What you wrote above is really the definition of "ambiguous." Since it is legal (I think) to fish the big rivers of PA in March, apparently the law is not so clear. Finally, if the law wasn't so ambigous..........this post would not exist.

The wording is not in any way ambiguous with respect to trout fishing. You can't fish for trout at any point downstream of ATW, period. This is very clear. The fact that there is no closed season for C&R bass fishing does not contradict this. If anything is ambiguous, its whether or not you can legally fish for bass downstream of an ATW. Certainly you would be fined if you fish for bass within an ATW. Just because they do not actively enforce the rule as written does not change the rule!

I think the post was driven by whether or not you could fish for trout 1/4 mile downstream of a stocked section - it could not be more clear that you cannot do this.

 

[pcray1231]

Agree with midnight here.

You cannot target trout in an ATW, or ANY water downstream from an ATW, unless its marked as under special regulations.

It's entirely clear with regards to trout. The gray area has nothing to do with locations, and everything to do with what species you are targeting.

Back when the non ATW headwater wild trout streams were more widely thought to be off-limits, many contemplated the "chub" defense.

 

[BPS]

lol @ "Chub Defense"

How true.

 

[Fishidiot]

Out of curiosity, I went back to the regs to take a look at the whole "downstream" language....and I couldn't find it. Certainly in the past, there was always a comment to the effect that areas downstream of ATWs were entirely off limits to fishing (just like the ATW section istelf). Unless I missed something, all the regulation states now is that harvest of trout is off limits in tributaries and waters downstream of ATWs. Am I missing something? Did the PFBC come to its senses and quietly drop the prohibition on fishing in downstream areas? To be honest, I always remember seeing this reg in the booklet that came with the fishing license and I now rely entirely on the website for fishing regs. If somebody has the hard copy or can find this on the website, I'd be curious to see it.

Approved Trout Waters:
http://fishandboat.com/fishpub/summary/troutwaters.html
Here's the verbiage that I was able to find:

Many streams, lakes, ponds and reservoirs are officially classified as “approved trout waters” (GIS data at PASDA). This means that these waters contain significant portions that are open to public fishing and are stocked with trout. These waters are open to trout harvest during the “extended season” (see Commonwealth Inland Waters). Unlisted tributary streams (those not included in this list of “approved trout waters”) are not open to harvest of trout during the “extended season.” Only approved trout waters and all waters downstream of approved trout waters are open during this period.

(NOTE: the thread has veered off topic and may warrant a new thread - decision pending)

 

[pcray1231]

What this language is discussing is the "extended season". The next paragraph explains the closed season, but just says "these waters", which I take to mean "Approved Trout Waters and all waters downstream of Approved Trout Waters", as thats the last subject description that "these waters" should encompass.

Here's my current take on it:

Lets split this up into categories, to simplify it. You have 2 groups of streams. 1. ATW's and all waters downstream of ATW's. 2. Non-ATW's (their terminology is "unlisted tributary streams").

For the ATW's and all areas downstream:

Regional opening day to Feb. 28 - Waters are open to fishing and harvest.
Feb. 28 to opening day - waters are closed to fishing.

Now, the non-ATW's:

Regional opening day to Sept. 5 - waters are open to fishing and harvest.
Sept. 6 to regional opening day - waters are open to fishing but not to harvest.

I still have 2 sources of confusion:

1. It says that "these waters", meaning ATW's and all waters downstream, are "closed to all fishing" in the closed season. But what about other species which may be in season? As this is in trout regulations, and other species specifically allow fishing during these times, I must assume that it "means closed to all fishing when trout are the target species."

2. Unlisted tributary streams.

Unlisted tributary streams (those not included in this list of “approved trout waters”) are not open to harvest of trout during the “extended season.” Only approved trout waters and all waters downstream of approved trout waters are open during this period.

That first sentence sounds as if the only thing thats illegal in the extended season is harvest. But the second sentence does not include the word "harvest", making it sound like non-ATW's are not even open to fish during the extended season. This always confused me and I used to hold that they are indeed closed to all fishing in the extended season, but discussions on this board as well as with WCO's have made me change that stance a bit.

 

[mtangler]

Try a stinger hook. It might help on some short strikes. I fish sculpins a lot and try to put as little motion on them as I can without completely dead drifting. When wade fishing this means hucking a cast upstream at a 45 degree angler...letting the bugs sink then fish it similar to a nymph rig but with just a little bit of a tighter line. This will cause the sculpin to alternate between dead drifted followed by short and subtle movements. Real sculpins don't swim fast, they just mill around the bottom and move in subtle darts. Stripping a sculpin with a traditional down and across technique can still produce trout, but it isn't the best imitation of the sculpin. The method described above is very effective...especially when down and across is only producing chases.

 

[SBecker]

Uhhm your fishing illegally

 

[jdaddy]

LRSABecker wrote:
Uhhm your fishing illegally

He said stinger, not stringer.