NYC Lehigh River Study is back on :(

And thousands of people, hours away from those millions were removed from the places they grew up and lived, their land was taken and flooded. It’s a story that’s been repeated over and over. The Seneca Nation was removed from their reservation, and a treaty was broken, so people hours away could benefit and the Kinzua Dam could be constructed.

Then there is the ecological ramifications.

A tail water fishery is no consolation.

Hey man, do me a favor please, i started this thread to talk about one of my favorite rivers. If you could take whatever crusade it is your are on to be the most unlikeable poster on this site to another thread or even better another site, we would all really appreciate it. Thanks, I hope you have a blessed day
 
Hey man, do me a favor please, i started this thread to talk about one of my favorite rivers. If you could take whatever crusade it is your are on to be the most unlikeable poster on this site to another thread or even better another site, we would all really appreciate it. Thanks, I hope you have a blessed day
That sounds like a personal attack.
 
Why doesn’t NYC use desalination for its drinking water purposes?

Just another classic example of the urban centers having priority over rural residents.
Why doesn't Philly use desalination? they're the ones with an issue.
 
Hey man, do me a favor please, i started this thread to talk about one of my favorite rivers. If you could take whatever crusade it is your are on to be the most unlikeable poster on this site to another thread or even better another site, we would all really appreciate it. Thanks, I hope you have a blessed day

I feel that the discussion is relevant. Had NYC secured a better source or drinking water for its residents, we wouldn’t need to be discussing the social or ecological issues of removing millions of gallons of water a day from a watershed.
 
Why doesn't Philly use desalination? they're the ones with an issue.
They certainly could.

The Delaware River runs right through Philadelphia though.

I think many would view this differently if Philadelphia was stealing millions of gallons a day from the Susquehanna.
 
And thousands of people, hours away from those millions were removed from the places they grew up and lived, their land was taken and flooded. It’s a story that’s been repeated over and over. The Seneca Nation was removed from their reservation, and a treaty was broken, so people hours away could benefit and the Kinzua Dam could be constructed.

Then there is the ecological ramifications.

A tail water fishery is no consolation.
A blue ribbon tailwater fishery is a fine consolation. Wasn’t my town, wasn’t my land, wasn’t my house. Everyone who was adversely affected is likely dead. The government takes things all the time and usually I don’t end up with the finest trout fishery east of the Rockies as a side effect.

And we wouldn’t even be talking about that river if it weren’t for those dams.
 
A blue ribbon tailwater fishery is a fine consolation. Wasn’t my town, wasn’t my land, wasn’t my house. Everyone who was adversely affected is likely dead. The government takes things all the time and usually I don’t end up with the finest trout fishery east of the Rockies as a side effect.

And we wouldn’t even be talking about that river if it weren’t for those dams.
The town of Cannonsville was razed in 1964. Many people affected by that are most certainly still alive.
 
And thousands of people, hours away from those millions were removed from the places they grew up and lived, their land was taken and flooded. It’s a story that’s been repeated over and over. The Seneca Nation was removed from their reservation, and a treaty was broken, so people hours away could benefit and the Kinzua Dam could be constructed.

Then there is the ecological ramifications.

A tail water fishery is no consolation.
The FEW was built for flood protection ca 1961 after the devastating effects of hurricane Diane in 1955. No one was removed from their native lands, and now likely hundreds of thousands of people are safe from flooding.
 
Well, if the feds or state want to take your land, doesn't matter if you are indigenous or had 5 generations raised up in the holler. If they want it, they'll take it. Before you throw a pity party for the displaced, a lot of them have been paid over market value for their properties. Environmental groups have blocked them by trying to save the snail darter, the 64 toed wood toad or whatever. Some were successful but not many.

If they are building a reservoir to supply drinking water to a city, supply water for agriculture or for flood control, all valid uses.... provided the use doesn't dewater the river downstream like they do out west. My only criticism is that it seems they base it off of current needs and don't factor in enough future demands.

Tailwater fisheries are amazing with a very diverse ecosystem below the dams. Only time I have seen an osprey take a fish, drag it to a boulder only to have it stolen by a bald eagle was on a tailwater. Yes, it artificially alters temperature in many of them but insect, plant and fish life flourish. I'd give up 100 miles of carp and catfish water to have it teaming with trout and smallmouth.

Without water, there is no life. As city sizes grow, so will their need for the resource. I expect to see many more built for flood control and drinking water before my time here is up. I just hope they are forward thinking enough to make them large enough and include different release options during construction. The Delaware, Bighorn, Madison and San Juan are all dream destinations for many. Some of the best fisheries in the country are tailwaters
 
Isnt the aqueduct work currently being done on the Delaware system supposed to increase flows downstream when its done also?

My understanding was the duct is leaky and lots of water is wasted but when its fixed that will not be the case and all that wasted water will now be headed downstream. So there is already some signifcant additional flow supposedly being permanently added in the near future...
I believe I read somewhere that the leaks add up to like 38M gallons of water a day. 1 cfs is 7.48 gallons. There are 86,400 seconds in a day. So 1 cfs over 24 hours. is 646,300 gallons. So about 54cfs over 24 hours is being lost daily. If my math is correct.

Really not a whole heck of a lot especially when you consider 100% of capacity in that system is 550B gallons of water. More than 1 years of water on storage on any given day since NYC uses 1B a day.

But hey - no one likes waste
 
Desalination isn't in common use in places like the US east coast where river water is relatively plentiful for one reason: It costs a lot more. That's changing, however, as people insist upon living in dry places like Phoenix, Arizona, Los Angeles, California and large parts of Texas (as well as dry places elsewhere that have been home to human civilization since civilization became a thing). The more it is used, the more ways are found to improve it, and the cheaper it gets. Heck, even Aberdeen, Maryland, considered reverse osmosis desal in an effort to use Chesapeake Bay water, but the idea was ditched because of, among other things, costs.

A couple things are worth keeping in mind, including the reality that desalination has its problems: Its waste product isn't dry salt, but a very salty liquid that is largely unregulated. Unregulated generally means, "ok to dump back in the water," but there are a lot of fish-unfriendly things about dumping highly concentrated salt water back into the ocean.

Also, present waste water treatment and drinking water filtration technologies are so advanced at this point, it is possible to run treated sewage effluent into a drinking water treatment plant and get water that is perfectly safe to drink. This has been true for at least three decades, but, as it was explained to me when I covered public works as part of my news beat, the idea is unpalatable politically, as well as in much more visceral ways. Still, the water cycle is such that the water in today's cat urine could well end up as the water in next year's Perrier.

Finally, I'll depart with a little bit of chemistry humor you'll hear on occasion in a water filtration plant: If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
 
Also, present waste water treatment and drinking water filtration technologies are so advanced at this point, it is possible to run treated sewage effluent into a drinking water treatment plant and get water that is perfectly safe to drink. This has been true for at least three decades, but, as it was explained to me when I covered public works as part of my news beat, the idea is unpalatable politically, as well as in much more visceral ways. Still, the water cycle is such that the water in today's cat urine could well end up as the water in next year's Perrier.

Finally, I'll depart with a little bit of chemistry humor you'll hear on occasion in a water filtration plant: If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

Organically speaking (nutrients, bacteria, etc) and likely for many oil based contaminants yes I would agree. For PFAS, many pharmaceuticals and estrogenic compounds, NO! I do not want to drink water out of a sewage plant without substantial dillution and/ or treatment.
 
Why doesn't Philly use desalination? they're the ones with an issue.
Mr Kennedy addressed the generalized challenges…expense, energy usage, disposal of brine/ecological damage, but Philly’s potable water intake is not the only water supply reason why the salt line needs to be pushed downstream. There is also the concern about salt water intrusion into the Patomac-Raritan-Magothy aquifer in places where its groundwater recharge areas intersect the Delaware Estuary. A lot of people on the NJ side depend upon that aquifer.
 
Well, if the feds or state want to take your land, doesn't matter if you are indigenous or had 5 generations raised up in the holler. If they want it, they'll take it. Before you throw a pity party for the displaced, a lot of them have been paid over market value for their properties. Environmental groups have blocked them by trying to save the snail darter, the 64 toed wood toad or whatever. Some were successful but not many.

If they are building a reservoir to supply drinking water to a city, supply water for agriculture or for flood control, all valid uses.... provided the use doesn't dewater the river downstream like they do out west. My only criticism is that it seems they base it off of current needs and don't factor in enough future demands.

Tailwater fisheries are amazing with a very diverse ecosystem below the dams. Only time I have seen an osprey take a fish, drag it to a boulder only to have it stolen by a bald eagle was on a tailwater. Yes, it artificially alters temperature in many of them but insect, plant and fish life flourish. I'd give up 100 miles of carp and catfish water to have it teaming with trout and smallmouth.

Without water, there is no life. As city sizes grow, so will their need for the resource. I expect to see many more built for flood control and drinking water before my time here is up. I just hope they are forward thinking enough to make them large enough and include different release options during construction. The Delaware, Bighorn, Madison and San Juan are all dream destinations for many. Some of the best fisheries in the country are tailwaters
It would certainly seem that the use of water is having effects downstream in this case.

As far as having a pity party for the displaced, I’m well aware that folks are compensated for their land. However, money isn’t everything. I don’t know if there is any amount that would get me off my place willingly.

There was a great episode a few weeks ago about some of the hold out property owners on the Buffalo National River, On the Beargrease Podcast.
 
Lots of negative Nancy's on this thread. The study for FEW will look at many different variables. One thing is for certain, the Corps will not sacrifice the current Flow Plans for fisheries and WW. So whatever NYC or DRBC is looking for will have to work around those parameters. Secondly, the Study is looking at determining how much MORE water can be put in FEW. The number being thrown around right now is 1392 Ft above sea level for the lake elevation. The Corps has reason to believe there may be some water quality concerns that need to be addressed, specifically anoxic conditions that lead to an iron-oxide deposition in the tailwater. The second issue is sustaining the coldwater for a long as possible and how to do that without disrupting current operations. The third issue is the amount of storage in FEW that could be dedicated to DRBC and will that be sufficient for use in saltline control. If the Corps determines that FEW can safely store water up to 1392 Ft, will the amount of storage between 1370 (current summer pool elevation) and 1392 be worth it to NYC and DRBC. The 22 feet of storage that could be used for saltline control is only about 5 BG of water. Regardless, if the Study determines that FEW can store more water in FEW, and even without modifications to the control tower to enable selective withdrawal, there would still be benefits to the fishery and extending the life of the coldwater pool in FEW. Remember, NYC does not own this reservoir and their say is very limited on the operations. I/LCFA has been involved in this project since the inception 15+ years ago. I don't see a negative side to this Study and it can only improve the fishery above what is current. We just have to see where this goes.
 
Lots of negative Nancy's on this thread. The study for FEW will look at many different variables. One thing is for certain, the Corps will not sacrifice the current Flow Plans for fisheries and WW. So whatever NYC or DRBC is looking for will have to work around those parameters. Secondly, the Study is looking at determining how much MORE water can be put in FEW. The number being thrown around right now is 1392 Ft above sea level for the lake elevation. The Corps has reason to believe there may be some water quality concerns that need to be addressed, specifically anoxic conditions that lead to an iron-oxide deposition in the tailwater. The second issue is sustaining the coldwater for a long as possible and how to do that without disrupting current operations. The third issue is the amount of storage in FEW that could be dedicated to DRBC and will that be sufficient for use in saltline control. If the Corps determines that FEW can safely store water up to 1392 Ft, will the amount of storage between 1370 (current summer pool elevation) and 1392 be worth it to NYC and DRBC. The 22 feet of storage that could be used for saltline control is only about 5 BG of water. Regardless, if the Study determines that FEW can store more water in FEW, and even without modifications to the control tower to enable selective withdrawal, there would still be benefits to the fishery and extending the life of the coldwater pool in FEW. Remember, NYC does not own this reservoir and their say is very limited on the operations. I/LCFA has been involved in this project since the inception 15+ years ago. I don't see a negative side to this Study and it can only improve the fishery above what is current. We just have to see where this goes.

Thank your this insight!

Does LCFA still exist in any capacity other than a private club? I have attempted to join the organization several times including once sending a check that was never cashed. Its very strange
 
Thank your this insight!

Does LCFA still exist in any capacity other than a private club? I have attempted to join the organization several times including once sending a check that was never cashed. Its very strange
Yea...we do still exist, but officer participation is very lax. Sorry about the check issue. There is a new mailing address PO Box 115 - Jim Thorpe, PA - 18229. The address changed a couple of years ago, so maybe it got lost in the shuffle. Appreciate the support. Also, we are not a "private club"....anyone can join.
 
So NYC is investing $$ in the study but will have limited say. Yeah right

NYC is in financial trouble and does not have money for basic services unless the Federal Govt bails them out.
 
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Yea...we do still exist, but officer participation is very lax. Sorry about the check issue. There is a new mailing address PO Box 115 - Jim Thorpe, PA - 18229. The address changed a couple of years ago, so maybe it got lost in the shuffle. Appreciate the support. Also, we are not a "private club"....anyone can join.

Back in 2020 is when i sent the check. Perhaps i will give it another shot. I'd possibly be interested in participating at a higher level as well depending on whats needed. I'd like to meet other guys who float the river regularly, fish, etc. I'm in Central Bucks county so i'm only an hour away and get up there as often as i can.

Are you the guy to speak to about ordering the rain so we can float before December, lol
 
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