NYC Lehigh River Study is back on :(

COVID substantially derailed this and then the mis-information about water literally being siphoned from FEW and sent to NYC did not help. But I am glad to see things are back in order and in my opinion this is the best opportunity to see substantial changes to the management at FEW that could significantly improve both the in lake and downstream fishery and also preserve white water release. And all the while protect the Corps core mission of flood control.
 
Previously, I was all for this but now am skeptical. As NYC grows, demand on water resources will increase. Thus, demand on the 3 NY reservoirs to supply potable water will force FEW and Beltzville to carry more of a load in saltwater repulsion.

Currently FEW runs out of cold water by mid June or so. Without increasing capacity or altering the discharge tower, my concern would be sacrificing water Temps for flow rate. Remember the primary mission is flood control and now saltwater repulsion.

Lastly, having dealt with bureaucrats in my professional life, the following language is too polished and prepared, it irks me and raises my spidey senses

“This agreement enables out-of-the box thinking, backed by world-class science and engineering analysis, to help ensure a more vibrant and healthier river basin for future generations while maintaining the critical protections to surrounding communities that all of us are committed to,” Aggarwala continued
 
Tigereye said:
Previously, I was all for this but now am skeptical. As NYC grows, demand on water resources will increase. Thus, demand on the 3 NY reservoirs to supply potable water will force FEW and Beltzville to carry more of a load in saltwater repulsion.

Currently FEW runs out of cold water by mid June or so. Without increasing capacity or altering the discharge tower, my concern would be sacrificing water Temps for flow rate. Remember the primary mission is flood control and now saltwater repulsion.

Lastly, having dealt with bureaucrats in my professional life, the following language is too polished and prepared, it irks me and raises my spidey senses

“This agreement enables out-of-the box thinking, backed by world-class science and engineering analysis, to help ensure a more vibrant and healthier river basin for future generations while maintaining the critical protections to surrounding communities that all of us are committed to,” Aggarwala continued
Click to expand...

I'm with you sir. Federal employees from New York wielding 'science.' We all saw how fast that goes sideways in the last 5 years, no thanks. New York should be poking around the Hudson up there figuring out how to use that water to drink and send more delaware river water down to beat back the salt line.
 
Isnt the aqueduct work currently being done on the Delaware system supposed to increase flows downstream when its done also?

My understanding was the duct is leaky and lots of water is wasted but when its fixed that will not be the case and all that wasted water will now be headed downstream. So there is already some signifcant additional flow supposedly being permanently added in the near future...
 
Only time will tell how much additional water from the Catskill reservoirs. I had a conversation with someone a few years back and they claim to have read a study that showed repairing the aqueduct would allow them to release 700 to 1,000 from each lake all year. It would never happen but it could be possible and would cool the east from the Jaws down towards peas eddy and would be a dramatic improvement on the main stem almost to Long Eddy.

I'm sure they'll crunch numbers, work up models, consult statisticians, etc. probably take a few years to fine-tune but my guess is you would see improvement to flows on All Rivers
 
krayfish2 said:
Only time will tell how much additional water from the Catskill reservoirs. I had a conversation with someone a few years back and they claim to have read a study that showed repairing the aqueduct would allow them to release 700 to 1,000 from each lake all year. It would never happen but it could be possible and would cool the east from the Jaws down towards peas eddy and would be a dramatic improvement on the main stem almost to Long Eddy.

I'm sure they'll crunch numbers, work up models, consult statisticians, etc. probably take a few years to fine-tune but my guess is you would see improvement to flows on All Rivers
Click to expand...

I recall that conversation! I hope you are correct, improved flows would be great. Ideally they would repair or replace the release gate to be multi level or however you call instead of bottom only. I have always heard money was the obstacle, this may be the one situation where it is not the obstacle with all the federal agencies involved that are flush with cash.

i appreciate the extra release they are providing currently with the incoming flow approaching 100 cfs and no real rain in the forecast
 
Can anyone give us an idea of how a release to push the salt line downstream goes? Duration, cfs, anything else important?

I don't know, but my gut reaction is a salt line release wouldn't be the best whitewater or fishing release.
 
Tigereye said:
Lastly, having dealt with bureaucrats in my professional life, the following language is too polished and prepared, it irks me and raises my spidey senses
Click to expand...

Agree, Joe, AND it sounds like they wrote that statement using 1990's business-speak, not even updated bullshit. Just lazy.... Out of the box thinking? 2000 called and wants it's cliche back.... A true sign that no one is thinking creatively at all...
 
phiendWMD said:
Can anyone give us an idea of how a release to push the salt line downstream goes? Duration, cfs, anything else important?

I don't know, but my gut reaction is a salt line release wouldn't be the best whitewater or fishing release.
Click to expand...
Dear phiendWMD,

NYC essentially controls the flow in the Delaware River since its main water supply reservoirs are located on the West and East Branches of the Delaware. Essentially, their water needs are pretty much set in stone, they get what they need.

Philadelphia draws water from the Delaware too, but it's well over 300 miles from the source. In the Summer as flows reduce the possibility of salt water via tides into the water system comes into play. That is what his study is about. Can the FE Walters Dam be used to supplement the flow of the Delaware River into Philadelphia during low flow times.

Philly will lose, and so will the Lehigh.

Regards,

Tim Murphy 🙂
 
I don't know what the salt line limit is but on the Delaware they use the "Montague formula" for the upper third of the river. I believe that the flow can't ever get below 1750 CFS at Montague New Jersey. I think it has something to do with them not being able to obtain water from the river further down if it drops beyond that.
 
Nymph-wristed said:
Agree, Joe, AND it sounds like they wrote that statement using 1990's business-speak, not even updated bullshit. Just lazy.... Out of the box thinking? 2000 called and wants it's cliche back.... A true sign that no one is thinking creatively at all...
Click to expand...
Yeah, I am saving that one. I have a feeling it may come in useful at a future town hall. 😁
They try to be political and cover all the bases. Inevitably that is nearly to impossible to do. These type of statements almost always come back to bite them in the @$$.

If someone needs 44 words to state their position, in the words of Col. Sherman T. Potter, I'm calling mule muffins.
 
phiendWMD said:
Can anyone give us an idea of how a release to push the salt line downstream goes? Duration, cfs, anything else important?

I don't know, but my gut reaction is a salt line release wouldn't be the best whitewater or fishing release.
Click to expand...
The supplemental flows have been generated from a number of reservoirs within the Delaware Basin in the past, either individually or in combination, including a hand-full of Pa reservoirs.

The target flow at Trenton is 3,000 cfs, but can be dropped depending upon the time of year and location of the salt fromt to values between 2500 cfs and 2900 cfs during drought warnings and drought emergencies.
 
Last edited:
IMO the loser here will be the WW industry. Too much water is wasted on the WW releases. No cold water left for fishing releases. At least the NYC releases for the most part are fairly steady without wasting the cold reserves.
 
Why doesn’t NYC use desalination for its drinking water purposes?

Just another classic example of the urban centers having priority over rural residents.
 
About 20 years ago, havre de Grace, which draws from the Susquehanna well into tidewater, was having trouble with the salt front. After much hand wringing and talk of spending a pile of town money on a few weak option solutions, a person wise in the ways of science pointed out that fresh water from the river is less dense than salt water moving up the bay. They raised the intake by about 20 feet in the water column and solved the problem with a little knowledge of basic environmental science.

Might not work in Philly, but there might be other low hanging fruit solutions.

Also, FEW dam could easily have its capacity increased for the cost of a detour and a bridge removal. It would cost more than 8 million, but that figure would put a dent in it. Studies can really get out of hand from a cost perspective.
 
Cznymph said:
Why doesn’t NYC use desalination for its drinking water purposes?

Just another classic example of the urban centers having priority over rural residents.
Click to expand...
Not directly advocating for NYC by any means, but the only reason the Delaware tailwater even exists is bc of New York spending the money to build the Cannonsville and Pepacton reservoirs (+ the other dams in the Catskills) back in the 50’s-60’s. The Dams would not be there were it not for the NYC water supply
 
Nocktavius said:
Not directly advocating for NYC by any means, but the only reason the Delaware tailwater even exists is bc of New York spending the money to build the Cannonsville and Pepacton reservoirs (+ the other dams in the Catskills) back in the 50’s-60’s. The Dams would not be there were it not for the NYC water supply
Click to expand...
I don’t find damming of waterways to be a good thing. Do you?
 
Cznymph said:
I don’t find damming of waterways to be a good thing. Do you?
Click to expand...
We make choices. 12 million people get clean drinking water. You could just stop there. But asxwas mentioned, you get a tailwater fishery protected by the idea that it, again, provides millions of people with clean drinking water.
 
tomgamber said:
We make choices. 12 million people get clean drinking water. You could just stop there. But asxwas mentioned, you get a tailwater fishery protected by the idea that it, again, provides millions of people with clean drinking water.
Click to expand...
And thousands of people, hours away from those millions were removed from the places they grew up and lived, their land was taken and flooded. It’s a story that’s been repeated over and over. The Seneca Nation was removed from their reservation, and a treaty was broken, so people hours away could benefit and the Kinzua Dam could be constructed.

Then there is the ecological ramifications.

A tail water fishery is no consolation.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Latest posts

Montana Angler Fly Fishing
Montana Angler Fly Fishing
Harman's North Fork Cottages


Real Time Data From
the USGS Site

Share this page

Back
Top