Line wt debate

5 wt, hands down. I have 5 rods, and 4 of them are 5 wts, the other is a 7 wt. They do vary a lot in action and especially length though. Its length that gets ya and makes it hard to just use one rod.

Even my brookie stream rod is a 5 wt, in fact I'd like a short 6 for a lot of those streams. The only place the 3's and 4's are nice, IMO, is throwing tiny flies on the medium sized streams, especially the limestoners like the Letort. I like some punch on the brushy mountain streams, need tight loops to get through the brush.
 
Before you buy anything think about the conditions you fish the majority of the time and get a rod that is designed to excel under those condition. There is no such thing as an all-purpose rod that can effectively cover the entire spectrum of fishing conditions.

Using a 9 foot 5 weight as an example, some rod designs are better suited for working in close (< 40 feet) while other rod designs are better suited for distance casting (> 40 feet). Not that the one better suited for in close work can’t throw 60 feet of line when needed (and vice versa) but if the majority of your fishing is done in close, get a high end rod that is designed to excel at those conditions. Trust me, you’ll be much happier in the long run.

For me the majority of my fishing involves casting less than 40 feet . I’ve got an 8 foot 3 weight, an 8 foot 4 weight and a 9 foot 5 weight – all medium action Winston WT models. If I had to keep only 1 rod, it would be the 4 weight, as this rod is the perfect “all-purpose” rod for the majority of conditions that I fish. It handles a moderate amount of wind, it can throw larger flies and it can toss 60 feet of line when needed. The 3 weight is my favorite rod and casts the best of the three but it really doesn’t handle wind or larger wind resistant flies all that well. The 5 weight is a great all around rod and on really windy days or fishing large, heavily weighted streamers, this is the rod I use but overall for the conditions I mostly fish, the 4 weight is the perfect “all-purpose” rod for me.

For high-end rods, try the Winston WT, Biit and Biix models and the Sage Z-Axis and ZXL models. The WT, Biit and ZXL are medium action rods and the Z-Axis and Biix are fast action rods.
 
I've used my 3wt for everything from bigger streams like Pine Creek and Tully trout to Lititz Run monster trout and small freestone wild brookie streams to the Suskie for bass. It has served me well for every purpose and I believe a 3-4 wt in PA is all you'll ever need unless you're going for Steelhead, Salmon, Carp or Muskie. Then you'll need something bigger.
 
Its not the size fish - its the wind and the size flies you fish.

A 3 wt line on a windy day would be a nightmare...but maybe i just don't know how to cast. I find some windy days, my 4wt makes me frustrated - and that has nothing to do with whether I'm fishing for 6" brookies or 20 inch browns.
 
A 9 foot Sage Z-Axis 3 weight rod with double hauling and throwing tight loops can cut through the wind and in no wind conditions can just about cast the entire line but to me that’s not the traditional purpose of a 3 weight. I think of a 3 weight as more of a medium action rod designed to fish in the 10 to 30 foot range when delicate presentation and protection of fine tippets is required. If you’ve got to cast greater than 30 feet or deal with any amount of wind I just feel you’re better off going to a 4 or 5 weight rod but that’s just my preference.
 
I fish with lots of weight, so I'd say a 8.5' 5wt.

As for rods in order, I think I went:

5/6, 4, 3, 5, 9, 5, 6
 
I've never had a problem with wind on my 6' 6" 3wt. I've been using a 3 wt for 6 years now. Of course, I've gotten used to what it will do on those days and compensate accordingly. However, let me know how you do with a 40" Muskie on a 3wt. I'd be curious.
 
spectorfly wrote:
I've never had a problem with wind on my 6' 6" 3wt. I've been using a 3 wt for 6 years now.

I don't doubt that. From the specific kind of fishing you post about on here you won't deal with wind much. But try making any cast in a stiff headwind standing on a jetty, up to your chest in a wide river or from a boat and you need a little more backbone. I almost always have a big and a little rod with me and I like using the smaller more often especially if I know I'm getting some dry action.
 
tomgamber wrote:
spectorfly wrote:
I've never had a problem with wind on my 6' 6" 3wt. I've been using a 3 wt for 6 years now.

I don't doubt that. From the specific kind of fishing you post about on here you won't deal with wind much. But try making any cast in a stiff headwind standing on a jetty, up to your chest in a wide river or from a boat and you need a little more backbone. I almost always have a big and a little rod with me and I like using the smaller more often especially if I know I'm getting some dry action.

I agree Tom. On really windy days I can see my line arc like a sail on a sailboat. It definitely causes drag in that situation. I could see it not being a factor if you fish wilderness streams with trees all around you. However, I don't fish a lot of wilderness streams......so the three weight only comes out on calm days. :)
 
JustFish wrote:
On really windy days I can see my line arc like a sail on a sailboat. It definitely causes drag in that situation. I could see it not being a factor if you fish wilderness streams with trees all around you.

I'm not talking about a little arc in your line. I'm talking about letting a nice cast fly and then all of a sudden it just stops and falls out of the air as it hits a wall of wind. Or casting north and having your line turn east in mid cast...better keep you head down if you are throwing big heavies when that happens.
 
tomgamber wrote:
JustFish wrote:
On really windy days I can see my line arc like a sail on a sailboat. It definitely causes drag in that situation. I could see it not being a factor if you fish wilderness streams with trees all around you.

I'm not talking about a little arc in your line. I'm talking about letting a nice cast fly and then all of a sudden it just stops and falls out of the air as it hits a wall of wind. Or casting north and having your line turn east in mid cast...better keep you head down if you are throwing big heavies when that happens.

I knew what you were talking about. I know you fish a lot of lakes. I was referring to my own personal experiences.
 
Tom is right. An unexpected gust occurs and who knows where the line and fly ends up.

The ability to cast a 3 weight in windy conditions is a function of line weight, line speed and loop size. The faster line speed generates more forward momentum and the tighter the loop results in less leading edge surface area of the fly line subject to wind resistance.

Traditional, medium action rods are not designed to generate high line speed while still maintaining a tight loop unless you are a very accomplished caster (think Lefty Kreh-like abilities). These rods are designed for what I consider to be 3 weight territory – short delicate presentations in little to no wind. And for delicate presentations you don’t want high line speed and tight loops and the leader turning over completely and slamming the fly to the water – you want a somewhat open loop that allows the fly to gently land on the water with as little line disturbance as possible.

Fast action 3 weight rods can generate the necessary line speed and still maintain a tight loop, which will help cut through the wind. You’re not going to make a 50 foot cast into the wind with any 3 weight rod but a fast action 3 weight rod in fairly capable hands can probably cut through 30 feet of headwind. However, it that really what a 3 weight should be used for? Personally I don’t think so and think heavier lines are more suited for fishing these conditions.
 
fishrich wrote:
For fishing in pa , If you could have one rod line weight what would it be? The reason I ask is I am looking for my first quality rod and I am stuck between 3 and 4 wt. Looking for some pros and con for each one

Thanks
Fishrich

A 3 wt. isn't an all around rod for PA or a first rod for a beginner. It sucks in the wind(for a beginner), casting distance for bigger streams is compromised vs. a heavier rod.

Fishrich if you fish a lot of smaller streams start out with a 4 wt. b/c you still can get away with it other places. If you fish a lot of Centre County larger streams I would go with a 5 wt.

Good Luck
 
Fishrich, what other rods do you currently own? It sounds like this is not your first rod. That would have alot to do with what you want. Also, being in Delaware County, you may doing most of your fishing in Ridley and the surrounding area. This is also amjor factor in your decision.
 
Green Weenie makes some good points about casting in the wind, but taking the wind out of the discussion how ‘bout these assertions?

Fast rod….tight loop….less delicate presentation.
Slow rod….open loop…delicate presentation.

3wt lighter….more delicate presentation.
5wt heavier…. less delicate presentation.

Huh? When the fly cast is made, the line straightens out, all the energy of the cast dissipates when the fly line and leader are over the water, and the line gently falls to the water. How the line got there, fast or slow line speed, tight loop or open loop, the result is the same. No?
 
Fast rod….tight loop….less delicate presentation.
Slow rod….open loop…delicate presentation.

3wt lighter….more delicate presentation.
5wt heavier…. less delicate presentation.

I disagree with all four of those being any kind of rule. They may be more likely but as you said they all fall about the same when it all stops in the air.
 
To answer the original poster’s question.

Last year my primary rods were a Cabelas 8.5’ 3 wt FT+ and a Z-axis 8.5’ 4 wt. Both are considered fast but not ultra fast. They both are equipped with SA Mastery GPX lines. So far this year I’ve been primarily using my 4 wt since the 3 wt is actually my oldest grandson’s rod.

My home streams are the Tully, Manatawny, and Hay Creeks. On these streams the 3 wt was my favorite. Unfortunately, I bought the FT + on closeout and when I went back to buy another FT+ they were all gone. My 4 wt does the job nicely and I’m sure a 5 wt would also get the job done. I like lighter rods for their physical weight, the enhanced enjoyment when fighting fish and ability to apply more pressure to a fish when using lighter tippets. You can accomplish some of these same objectives by using slower action or more expensive rods and other configurations but I prefer lighter rods. I have three 3wt rods of various actions and lengths. The FT + is the fastest, longest and offers the most utility.

Last spring I fished Pine and Lt. Pine creeks. The 3wt worked very nicely on Lt. Pine. However, I used a 5 wt on Pine when the wind kicked up. I would have used a heavier rod if I had one. I’m not very good at casting into the wind so it’s easier for me go up in rod weight.

The FT+ has more 20”+ fish than any of my other rods. Mostly because I fished it and both my grandsons used it a lot last year. These fish were taken from the Lt. Schuylkill, Tully, and a private pond.

Someone made comment on what would happen if a musky was hooked up on a 3 wt. That brings up a good point. I believe the 3 wt is best balanced for tippets of 4x and smaller. That way you know your tippet will break long before your rod. So I wouldn’t recommend using a 3 wt for steelhead on 2x tippets. The 3 wt will also be less forgiving if you fight large fish by lifting your rod overhead and create a very sharp angle between rod and line. Basically, you’re fighting the fish with the tip of the rod rather than the butt and this can result in a snapped rod. You can break a 5 wt the same way but the heavier rod should take more abuse.

At this point in time (I’m constantly updating my views) I feel the three weight rod offers a great combination of enjoyment and utility on the size streams that I normally fish. It’s up to you to decide what will work on your waters.

I don’t believe there is a best rod that will cover all PA trout fishing but an 8.5’ or longer rod in 5/6wt will certainly do almost everything for trout (or bass or Steelhead) in PA it just may not be as much fun and for me fishing is all about the fun factor.

Good luck on your search. And good luck on that whole One Rod Theory. I had just one rod once. I think I was 10.
 
I’ll walk back to the truck to pick up another rod to fish a section of stream or different line weight or length. I know crazy. But one rod, if you took all of them and only had one that rod would be a 7’6” 5 wt.


Joe E
 
You are correct if you use the same 3 weight line, the same length leader, the same fly, impart the same line velocity, shoot equal amounts of line for a total cast of say 30 feet in length, and cast at the same height over the water. Assuming all this occurs, absolutely, both lines will hit the water with the same energy no matter whether cast from an ultra fast, fast, medium or slow action rod – graphite or bamboo. However, in practice that’s not what happens.

What casts a fly is the line’s momentum. The mass of the line is constant no matter what rod you spool it on so what does change is line velocity.

Fast action rods generally are better suited to aerialize more line, cast for distance and cut through the wind with higher line speeds and tighter loops, while medium action rods are better suited to throw shorter casts. Fast action rods are generally more difficult to load at close ranges and many times in order to load and “feel” the rod, the caster increases line speed and by increasing line speed momentum is increased. Medium action rods are much easier to load and “feel” and at close distances the result is a slower and more relaxed casting motion, which results in a slower line speed and therefore less momentum.

So what happens on say a 25 foot cast is the velocity of the line cast from a fast action rod generally ends up being faster than that of a medium action rod, which means the cast from the fast action rod has more momentum which must be dissipated. Assuming the length of line cast and the fall distance to the water being equal, the fast action rod will hit the water with more energy simply because equal amounts are dissipated during the cast but the fast action cast starts with more energy so therefore, more is left at the end of the cast. Many times a line that is cast too fast for the distance completely straightens out, snaps back towards the casters and falls to the water with a big plop. You can do that with either rod but generally speaking and from working with and observing many casters, the tendency of many with a fast action rod, especially when working at close distances, is to impart too much line speed, which results in an excess of momentum and therefore a less delicate presentation that with a medium action rod.

As for loops, you don’t want tight loops completely straightening out your leader especially when fishing dry flies. If you’re using a 12 foot leader that has a 4 foot 6x tippet section you don’t want the leader fully turning over and going straight - you’ll get drag immediately. Ideally you want the tippet section not completely unfolding and kind of piling or lying in a ‘S’ curve.

Tight loops also result in less wind resistance. If you were to look at a tight loop cast coming directly at you, the leading edge of the line (the front edge of the ‘U’ you see coming at you) may be 2 feet or less high. A more open loop may be 4 feet or more high. Less surface area of the leading edge of the line (2 feet in the tight loop cast) pushing through the wind means less resistance, which means less energy is dissipated by the wind during the cast. Therefore, a tight loop cast at a close distance won’t dissipate as much energy as an open loop and is more prone to not being delicate. Not that it cannot be done but it is more prone to not being delicate.

As for line weights, lighter line is used when more delicate presentations are required. You’re generally using smaller flies, casting at close distances and in slower, clear, calm water where you want the line to land gently and minimize surface disturbances. A 5 weight line simply weighs more per linear foot than a 3 weight line so if you drop a 10 foot section of 3 weight and 5 weight line from 10 feet above the water, the 3 weight line will land softer on the water because it has less potential energy to start with. Potential energy equals mass (3 weight has less) times gravity (constant for both) times height (10 feet for both). The lighter line is also more susceptible to wind resistance, which further decreases the speed of the line hitting the water.

So my statements are more generally speaking. If you can create the same conditions it doesn’t matter what rod you use the result will be the same but most people cannot. That is why medium action rods are better suited for working up close and fast action rods are better suited for working at greater distances. That is also why lighter lines are more delicate than heavier lines, too.
 
That is why medium action rods are better suited for working up close and fast action rods are better suited for working at greater distances.

I just read an article about fishing stone fly nymphs that said exactly the opposite. Just sayin'
 
Back
Top