Etiquette?

[Concerned_Angler]

It seems that many of the conversations I have with other anglers, either on the net, on a stream or in flyshop, many times turn to stream etiquette. I think that everyone enjoys fishing around folks who know and practice good stream etiquette. My thought is that good stream etiquette does not end on the stream anymore in our ever changing world that includes the internet and media.

My concern is the posts that contain stream names specifically. Not the ones asking for information on such and such a stream or stream conditions or whatever info is being asked. I think it is okay to ask for info from other anglers, as that is how many of us learn. The responses to many of these inquiries should be handled carefully though, probably through either PM or e-mail, not posted for everyone to see.

The biggest concern to me is the posts that name a particular stream and numbers of fish caught, seeing numbers of fish or size of fish. This draws crowds to streams that are already crowded, no matter where the stream is located.

My assumption is that the folks who do this are either not aware of the possibility that their fishing spot will become over crowded or they have some ulterior motive, such as business interests that will benifit from larger numbers of anglers on the water or in the area.

My thought for the second of the two is that eventually they will cause such overcrowding that people will stop coming to their location and they will still loose in the end like the rest of us who use to enjoy solitude on the streams we fish.


The Concerned Angler

 

[Fishidiot]

Dear Concerned,
Rest assured that you're not the only one concerned about info posted on streams on the internet. This very subject has been repeatedly - and sometimes hotly - debated on this forum. It will continue to be debated. I have stated my view on this enough so won't repeat it other than to say that I don't care to "name" streams unless they're very well known. What constitutes well known is a matter of opinion. Others on this forum are more open about discussing small local streams - although this sometimes makes me cringe if it's a favorite stream of mine - I respect their opinion.

 

[JackM]

I humbly disagree with the original post in the notion that proper ettiquette demands that streams not be named or highlighted on the internet. I respectfully feel that the choice is up to the individual who is naming the stream. I hope that my opinion does not seem too disagreeable, and if it does, I sincerely apologize to anyone I have offended. :-D

 

[Concerned_Angler]

I am definately not offended, as I believe everyone is entitled to their own opinion or else I wouldn't share mine.

As a response to your post though, you said "I respectfully feel that the choice is up to the individual" but isn't etiquette about "other people" and what they would find to be okay? This is a stretch of logic, but then what is the point of etiquette? If it doesn't bother me to stand in someone's backcast or cast to the rising fish in front of them that they are fishing to, then why shouldn't I do it. For that matter, if I want to throw rocks into the stream in front of someone and it is up to me and does not bother me, then why not.

I am presenting that etiquette is about having the manners not to cause someone else to have a poor experience while fishing. Putting info out there that can and usually does lead to increased fishing pressure on a stream or river or pond or whatever does affect other fishers in a negative way, because they cannot have the experience they wanted or were accustomed to having.


The Concerned Angler

 

[Coughlin]

Concerned,
As a question, given your position, how do you think the Stream Location" and Stream Report" threads on the Board should be handled?
Coughlin

 

[JackM]

You obviously derive greater pleasure from having your stream to yourself than you do from sharing information that will be useful to other anglers and help them have a nice outing. When you not only withhold information on good fishing from others, but seek to prevent others from doing the same, aren't you causing those others who lack your knowledge of good streams to have a poor experience? What is so honorable about that? Um, respectfully.

 

[Wulff-Man]

You didn't ask me, but I'll give my opinion anyway. :-D

Concerned said that he felt advertising large numbers of fish caught was fine if this is what you want to do, just don't tell where. I think the opposite is appropriate for stream reports and stream info. Give all the helpful info you want, just don't advertise that you caught 50 fish there. It's not necessary. Stream reports should contain information about fishing conditions, flys hatching, what flys you have success with, etc. They can contain general info on whether the fishing has been good or not, but why raise a red flag with real big numbers? I think that usually when you see big numbers like that, it's just because a guy had a much better than normal day with respect to the usual, and it doesn't mean that everyone else will. But it could mean that a lot of people will flock to the place. Sometimes they do, probably most times they don't, but what's the point in waving a red flag?

 

[Concerned_Angler]

To answer your question, I think Wulff-Man really summed it up well. Give the conditions, water clarity/flow, hatches, etc. No need to say I caught this many or that many.

As far as locations, I see nothing wrong with giving directions to any body of water as they are all on a map that anyone can obtain. I personally do not ask on-line unless I just cannot find it as I don't want to clue in others to a potential "secret" spot that I want to "discover." Not much worse than a long hike to a secret spot to find it already being used.

The Concerned Angler

 

[Concerned_Angler]

by JackM on 2007/4/15 10:54:32

You obviously derive greater pleasure from having your stream to yourself than you do from sharing information that will be useful to other anglers and help them have a nice outing. When you not only withhold information on good fishing from others, but seek to prevent others from doing the same, aren't you causing those others who lack your knowledge of good streams to have a poor experience? What is so honorable about that? Um, respectfully.


Jack,

You obviously missed something I said along the way. I never said not to share this information, I suggested to share it via e-mail or PM, not pubically. I share info with folks I see fishing all the time and they usually share with me.

What you are talking about is how easy or difficult it is to gain info. It's the difference between joining a board such as this and posting and asking questions or just lurking and picking up info without any effort, which is fine, but not the best way for some of us.

The Concerned Angler

 

[dkile]

Good topic. I am not sure I understand how etiquette plays a role in your feelings about Internet stream posts, but I’ll try not to cast over your line on this one.

There have been several excellent books written by the likes of Dwight Landis, Charles Meck, Mike Sanja, and others that clearly identify the best fly fishing spots in the state. For that matter the PFBC own publication frequently spotlights specific streams and locations for anglers to hit up. The audience for these publications I would suggest is in the tens of thousands if not more. Do these publications cause over crowding? It is more about awareness and education.

When there is a named stream posted on the Internet that includes conditions and fishing results I look at they same way I like at those publications. Greater awareness and education are the results. If I hear about someone doing well with black wooly buggers on Tuesday at Penn’s Creek I can apply that knowledge to my trip at Spring Creek for Thursday. I certainly wouldn’t be concerned that I could find a parking spot nears Penn’s Creek for the next week due to a post.

Now I am not naive that there is a difference between how many people can fish over Penn’s Creek and let’s say the West Branch Octoraro Creek for example. Now if there were only messages about the West Branch Octoraro Creek being posted I would agree it may get busier, but that is not what happens. There are many posts about many streams.

Fishing license sales have declined since 1990 with about 1,163,000 licenses sold in Pennsylvania that year. In 2006 just over 830,00 licenses were sold with statistics showing that about 10% of all anglers classifying themselves as fly fishing anglers. I would suggest that our sport shows signs of decline.

Like many in our sport I enjoy the solitude that we can experience at many of the magnificent streams in our state. But it doesn’t matter if people hear about hot spots from books, magazines, newspapers, the internet or in the local pub there will be anglers on our streams and we will never get the complete solitude we sometimes wish we could get.

Do you have any specific examples of over crowding on fly streams due to the posting of Internet messages in this manner?

 

[Padraic]

First of all, rant and rave all you want. You'll never change the way "the masses" behave. You can work on one person, or your friends, but you can't fight everyone.

Second, some streams... for instance Kettle Creek, need a lot of friends. Ongoing remediation work is expensive and requires grant money, donations and sponsorships. Publicizing the stream is only way to get the AMD work done on a stream like that. A secret stream has no friends.

Lastly, unless the stream is non-navigable and runs entirely on your property you don't own it. We all fish each others favorite holes. I try to remember that and respect it. Sometimes I see a guy in a spot I like to fish and sometimes he has a stringer. Is it my place to lecture him about the virtues of catch and release? No! If he brags to his friends about the spot, can I beat him up? No. Most often the guy is a C&R fisherman like me, and sometimes he carts out some trash or what not. Then I'm glad to see him. The streams are everyone's to enjoy as they see fit in the way the law allows. If "my" spot is taken, then I guess I have to find another spot.

 

[JackM]

Padraic's post suggests another thing to consider, which I often tell myself when I encounter a stream too crowded for my taste. If you are on a stream that is crowded, you are contributing as much to the crowded conditions as any other angler. And each of them has as much right to be there and to enjoy that resource as you do.

 

[Stonefly57]

Hmm Lots said about the hows/whats/whys of naming streams. My opinion ( for what its worth) First - to name wild mountain brook trout streams that have no protection from the state is the mark of carelessness. Its the quickest way to have that stream stripped out by bait guys. Many of these guys would much rather see your 10 inch brookie in a pan than released back to the water.
I was taught that one has to EARN these streams - These type of waters often have a limited amount of fish, and an even more limited amount of access ( parking and streamside) I was shown my favorite waters not by name , but by someone giving me an area or watershed to explore. The rest I earned myself. Think about it.Naming unprotected waters

 

[jrcll]

I agree with what wulf-man said, give all the info about bugs and stream conditions ect, but leave out how many trout caught ,i would like to think that most of us on here are beyond running up the fish score so to speak but enjoy the experience its self, that being said with most people getting just a day or two off and making a trip to an unknown stream you want all the info you can get

 

[dryflyguy]

This issue has been hotly debated here, and on other sites before.
It's one thing to talk about a big well know stream - if I post that the sulphers are hatching on spring creek or the little juniata for instance - that's not revealing some big secret. Any accomplished fly fisher knows about the hatch on those streams - and they have no kill regs to protect the fish.
But I don't put info on here about any of the little native streams I fish - just not smart IMO. If that's bad etiquette - so be it!

 

[Coughlin]

dryflyguy wrote:
This issue has been hotly debated here, and on other sites before.
It's one thing to talk about a big well know stream - if I post that the sulphers are hatching on spring creek or the little juniata for instance - that's not revealing some big secret. Any accomplished fly fisher knows about the hatch on those streams - and they have no kill regs to protect the fish.
But I don't put info on here about any of the little native streams I fish - just not smart IMO. If that's bad etiquette - so be it!

I'm in agreement here. I mean, if I did have a secret small stream
(I wish) I'd probably tell my best fishing buddy, but then I could expect dinner and a couple of beers :-D . Other than that, I'm happy enough to give whatever information might make a guy's trip successful.
Coughlin

 

[tomgamber]

We've had this discussion how many times...? Now we're having it in two different threads. If someone posts info that causes hi favorite place to become crowded then he is only hurting himself. Check the PAFBC website in the next week, they'll be hyping how great opening day was with fewer, bigger trout like they did two weeks ago.

 

[Crotalus]

Dave pretty much covered my thoughts on this topic but i will add a little more of my opinion.

There are a number of books out there already in print concerning PA trout streams and hatches. I am assuming that you have also taken this issue up with those authors in an effort to get them to pull thier books from the shelves to protect the streams.

Check with Donny Beaver, i am sure he can give some tips on keeping others out of your stream.

This isnt an issue of etiquette, it is an issue of elitism and snobbery.

 

[FarmerDave]

Concerned_Angler wrote:

Jack,

You obviously missed something I said along the way. I never said not to share this information, I suggested to share it via e-mail or PM, not pubically. I share info with folks I see fishing all the time and they usually share with me.

What you are talking about is how easy or difficult it is to gain info. It's the difference between joining a board such as this and posting and asking questions or just lurking and picking up info without any effort, which is fine, but not the best way for some of us.

The Concerned Angler

Well C_A, I know you weren't addressing me, but i seemed to miss what you were saying too initially. I read your message and I also disagreed with it. I also read Wulff-Man's message and totally agreed with it. Then I see that you agreed with it too? Something is confusing.

Lump Wulff-Man's and Stonefly57's messages together and that is how I feel on this subject.

I always cringe when I see a small native stream posted on sites like this. I don't like the kiss and tell books for the same reason. Nothing is sacred. But another thing to consider is when someone does mention a stream or a location that I am fond of, it is best to ignore it. Arguing with it just means the discussion will keep rising to the top, bringing even more attention to it. Starting a new thread was a good idea.

This has been discussed many times here over many years. None of the oldtimers (as in regulars for a few years or more) are going to change their opinion on this one.

 

[Chaz]

Naming stocked streams in a post is not an ettiquette issue it is a matter of choice. All the stocked streams are published, and as a matter of fact all the wild streams are too, so there are only secret streams in the minds of anglers. I won't post my favorite spots on the internet but I won't post misleading or incorrect information either. If I go to Kettle Creek and catch 100 wild trout, I'm not going to post that in a stream report, but if someone asks me if I've fished it and have done well there, that isn't a secret.
I do however agree with what I think you are getting at; and that is that you just don't talk about streams that are not well known on an internet message board unless you want the entire world to know where you fish.